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Nanci Danison's NDE (Read 118429 times)
recoverer
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #15 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 3:41pm
 
Roger:

I read a fair amount of CWG a while back, but it has so many pages, I called it quits. I'm going to try to read some more.

Walsch might've read ACIM along with other books.


rondele wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 2:26pm:
Albert-

If you do re-read CWG, you'll see many similarities to ACIM.  As a matter of fact, I personally am convinced the author cribbed liberally from ACIM as did Gary Renarb in his Disappearance of the Universe book.

Again, I know experience and learning go hand in hand.  That really wasn't my point.  I meant that in the context of ACIM, experience has no moral value.  It simply is what it is.  If experience involves doing "bad" things, so be it.  Doesn't matter since good and bad acts are not real. 

R

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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #16 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 3:45pm
 
I read Kathy's last post again and this sentence stood out:

"Clearly from a human perspective there is a world of difference between the intent that led to Mother Teresa's actions and the intent behind Hitler's actions. "

I agree. "Intent" is a key factor.  Regardless of the overall consequences of Hitler's actions, he definitely had "bad" intentions that were motivated by hate, anger, and a lack of respect and compassion for other people.
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #17 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 3:47pm
 
Even though I've never read the book, I'm pretty sure CWG is not an actual conversation with God.  Likely more of a conversation with what I'll call the author's inner guidance which is of course fallible because of personal bias either on the part of the author or if "channelled" personal bias of whoever that was.  I wonder does the author actually state or believe it was a conversation with God?  Or is the name of the book more like a "clever" theme / title for the book?

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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #18 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 4:03pm
 
The dialogues take place as if he is talking to God.

I believe it is possible that even when a person fakes being a channel, that person's guidance might become aware of what is going on and try to pass along some helpful and truth based information to the pretend channeler so such information gets communicated.

The degree to which such guidance succeeds will be dependent upon how open the pretend channeler is to receiving such information, and how much the pretend channeler dispenses with his own thoughts.

This is just a theory, I don't know.

Lights of Love wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 3:47pm:
Even though I've never read the book, I'm pretty sure CWG is not an actual conversation with God.  Likely more of a conversation with what I'll call the author's inner guidance which is of course fallible because of personal bias either on the part of the author or if "channelled" personal bias of whoever that was.  I wonder does the author actually state or believe it was a conversation with God?  Or is the name of the book more like a "clever" theme / title for the book?


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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #19 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 6:24pm
 
I think the key to understanding Walsch's philosophy is the idea that all actions come from a particular level of consciousness. So Hitler's actions came from a 'Hitler' level of consciousness i.e. one of fear and paranoia; from Hitler's perspective his actions were logical and justified i.e. the goal of a 'great' Germany. As people grow in consciousness and become more aware their actions inevitably change. An example of this could be the change of the angry, bitter young Nelson Mandela to the elder statesman espousing forgiveness of his oppressors. For Walsch  the key is conscious evolution and the purpose of life is 'to recreate yourself anew in the next grandest version of the greatest vision ever you held about Who You Are'.

Regarding God's attitude to 'evil' CWG uses the analogy of a parent's attitude to their children; we don't regard our 3 year old as inferior to our 10 year old  because the 3 year old can't do up his laces- when he grows up he will be able to do so too.

Like ACIM Walsch believes the separation between us and God to be an illusion and so 'We are all One'. Therefore it is probably more accurate to say he is communing with the 'God Aspect' within himself i.e. the highest concept of God consciousness he can currently hold. Because it comes through his 'filter' it (his message) is by definition not perfect but an evolving one. Because of this his message is not 'The Truth' but the truth as he can currently conceive it.
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #20 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 6:43pm
 
I don't believe God felt judgment towards Hitler. He probably understands why people become the way they become. 

Consider it this way.  Without getting into the concentration camps, mass murder of Jewish people, other hardships that Jewish people had to suffer, the immense negativity that happened during World War II, and how numerous German people were influenced in a negative way, consider this one inciddent, if it is true, from the movie Schindler's list.

Jewish people were packed into train cargo cars like sardines. During hot weather they had to do without water. Arthur Schindler felt compassion for these people and hosed down the train cars so the people within them could get water. The Germans laughed as he did this.

When this event took place, certainly God was able to recognize the difference between Arthur's compassion and the German's callous indifference.  Perhaps God thought that the day will be good when the callous German people at the scene recognize the value of compassion and respect for others.

CWG has words that seem to imply that God doesn't characterize some ways of being as positive, and others as negative. Rather, God simply believes that everything "just is."

If we can see how things are in the moment, why can't God?

It is possible that because he listened to his intellect more than his heart, Walsch was biased towards the number 1 option I mentioned earlier on this thread, rather than option 2.

It may be that people need to find a balanced way to view this issue. I believe this includes not counting our chickens before they hatch.


heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 6:24pm:
I think the key to understanding Walsch's philosophy is the idea that all actions come from a particular level of consciousness. So Hitler's actions came from a 'Hitler' level of consciousness i.e. one of fear and paranoia; from Hitler's perspective his actions were logical and justified i.e. the goal of a 'great' Germany. As people grow in consciousness and become more aware their actions inevitably change. An example of this could be the change of the angry, bitter young Nelson Mandela to the elder statesman espousing forgiveness of his oppressors. For Walsch  the key is conscious evolution and the purpose of life is 'to recreate yourself anew in the next grandest version of the greatest vision ever you held about Who You Are'.

Regarding God's attitude to 'evil' CWG uses the analogy of a parent's attitude to their children; we don't regard our 3 year old as inferior to our 10 year old  because the 3 year old can't do up his laces- when he grows up he will be able to do so too.

Like ACIM Walsch believes the separation between us and God to be an illusion and so 'We are all One'. Therefore it is probably more accurate to say he is communing with the 'God Aspect' within himself i.e. the highest concept of God consciousness he can currently hold. Because it comes through his 'filter' it (his message) is by definition not perfect but an evolving one. Because of this his message is not 'The Truth' but the truth as he can currently conceive it.

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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #21 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 4:37am
 
Hi Recoverer,

its a long time since I read the CWG series but I think I am understanding it correctly. I think the really radical part of what Walsch is saying is that we and God are one. He uses this phrase 'We are God Godding' i.e. doing the business of God. This means that we are extremely powerful creationary beings. When people find it blasphemous that Walsch claims to talk to God he would reply that we all talk to God. The key to understanding him is to realise that because of differing levels of consciousness they seem like different Gods ! .Its almost like as you change ,your God changes; so the God of Hitler seems like a different God to Jesus but because the awareness and understanding of Hitler is so much less than Jesus's the God is radically different in conception. Essentially he doesn't believe in a set apart God, we are all sons (and daughters) of God.

Basically its a form of panentheism which is defined by Wikipedia as ' a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force[1]) interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.' I think its important to understand that many people from different religions and none have believed (a glance at the wiki page will confirm it) this so it is not just Walsch on a limb although I've never heard it expressed in the way he does before.

I remember as I read it thinking of how it would annoy a lot of people (indeed some of it annoyed me !) but I think it should inspire better moral behaviour not worse, using the ' recreate yourself anew in the next grandest version of the greatest vision ever you held about Who You Are' principle. Another of Walsch's catchy aphorisms (he has lots !) is 'what would love have us do now ?'. So it is very much a love-based and 'service to others' doctrine.
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #22 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 1:26pm
 
Heisenberg:

I believe we are all basically pieces of God. After all, what could God use but his own being to create us? Therefore, our basic nature is God-like.

To suggest that we have a basic nature that isn't God-like is to suggest that there is something other than God.

Of course when I speak in this way I don't mean that God is like an old man in the sky. Undecided
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #23 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 3:38pm
 
'Of course when I speak in this way I don't mean that God is like an old man in the sky'

Recoverer- I've read enough posts of yours to know that you don't think that ! But wouldn't it be easier sometimes to believe in an old man in the sky telling us what to: no tricky decisions to make just obey the rules and do what you're told, take our punishments when we disobey and heavenly rewards (hopefully) when we obey !
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #24 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 6:42pm
 
With all the discussion about CWG I knew my daughter had at least one of his books so I picked it up and read through quite a lot of it.  Turned out to be the second book.

I completely agree with Heisenberg's review of CWG.  Including the part where he says it's annoying to read!  Grin  My kid only read about a third of it for that reason alone.

I do, however, completely disagree with CWG's the idea that all time is happening now, simultaneously, or that time doesn't exist.  Space does not exist, but time does.  Time is fundamental.  If time didn't exist nothing could exist because without time there could no change of state, no evolution.  Time first began when primordial consciousness first noticed a before and after change of state.

K
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #25 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 7:24pm
 
http://spiritualityisnoexcuse.wordpress.com/category/neale-donald-walsch/

He also has a history of plagarism:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/steveduin/2009/01/the_truth_and_neale_donald_wal.html

No wonder his CWG had God saying almost the same words and phrases in ACIM.

Now he practically has a cult following. I was so disgusted by his book that it found its way into the nearest trash can.

R
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #26 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:08pm
 
Its up to everyone to choose what they believe regarding NDW but I would just make a couple of points: sound off blog entries are ten a penny these days, reasoned debate is a rarer commodity ! 'The spirituality is no excuse' blog is run by  Yakaru  an 'Australian living in Germany' a read through his twitter tweets show him to a very opinionated atheist (also targeting others such as Rupert Sheldrake) who hits out at anything which challenges his world view; he is entitled to his view as is everyone but in no way is he an unbiased critic, he has an agenda ...

Regarding plagiarism Walsch has admitted and apologised for using a Candy Chand anecdote as one of his own five years ago but does this count as a 'history of plagiarism' or are there other transgressions ? I think much more damaging to Walsch would be financial irregularities because fiscal  transparency is at the core of his message. Regarding ACIM and CWG they do have similarities but also big differences for example for Walsch the illusion of separation is no 'mad idea' but part of God's plan to know Himself. Regarding similarities with other texts a proponent could argue that is because they hold universal spiritual truths crossing all religions and belief systems.

I don't want to come across as a Walsch devotee here - just to see some fair play ! 
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #27 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:08pm
 
Heisenberg:

Regarding the plagiarism part, Candy Chand's article appeared in Clarity magazine in 1999. Walsch posted the same story as his own on his website in 2009. He said it is based on what happened with his son 20 years ago (1989?).

Walsch said,  "I have told the story verbally so many times over the years that I had it memorized ... and then, somewhere along the way, internalized it as my own experience.”

I find his explanation puzzling.  Since he at one point claimed it happened with his son in 1989,  why did he wait until after 1999 to start telling it? If it's such a great story, one would think that he would start telling it right away. CWG came out in 1995 so this might relate.

If he initially told it as Candy Chand's story, the repetition of doing so would've implanted in his memory that the story came from her. This being the case, how did the part of Candy Chand suddenly disssapear from his memory? Was it like, one day he told the story as if it was Candy's story, and then the next time he told the story he did so as if it is was his own?

Now all of this doesn't prove that he didn't receive information from God, it just adds doubt about his honesty.

If one doesn't actually receive information from God I believe it is wrong to claim that one does. It is disrespectful to the one who is misrepresented and to the people who are misled.

Regarding the later, if people conclude that the information comes from God, then they are likely to conclude that it couldn't be wrong because how could information that comes from God be wrong? Therefore, to the extent Walsch's information is wrong, false concepts get imbedded within a person's mind. Until a person reaches the point where he (or she) can question such concepts, he will be misled and limited accordingly.

If he called his book Conversations with Myself, people would be more likely to be able to question what he wrote.

Earlier on this thread I wrote that I'm going to read CWG and look for factual points (e.g., false historical or scientific information) that can be debunked. Early on I found philosophical points that I feel I need to address right away even though they aren't factual points.  I will post about these philosophical points later.

Kathy:

Thank you for sharing about your recent reading experience.


heisenberg69 wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:08pm:
Its up to everyone to choose what they believe regarding NDW but I would just make a couple of points: sound off blog entries are ten a penny these days, reasoned debate is a rarer commodity ! 'The spirituality is no excuse' blog is run by  Yakaru  an 'Australian living in Germany' a read through his twitter tweets show him to a very opinionated atheist (also targeting others such as Rupert Sheldrake) who hits out at anything which challenges his world view; he is entitled to his view as is everyone but in no way is he an unbiased critic, he has an agenda ...

Regarding plagiarism Walsch has admitted and apologised for using a Candy Chand anecdote as one of his own five years ago but does this count as a 'history of plagiarism' or are there other transgressions ? I think much more damaging to Walsch would be financial irregularities because fiscal  transparency is at the core of his message. Regarding ACIM and CWG they do have similarities but also big differences for example for Walsch the illusion of separation is no 'mad idea' but part of God's plan to know Himself. Regarding similarities with other texts a proponent could argue that is because they hold universal spiritual truths crossing all religions and belief systems.

I don't want to come across as a Walsch devotee here - just to see some fair play ! 

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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #28 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:19pm
 
Sorry, I just have a visceral reaction when it comes to people like Walsch.  The shenanigans he's involved with just hit my hot buttons. 

Cults like the one he initiated and continues to promote leave me cold.  As is true with other cult leaders, it's all about power and control (and the fringe benefits that go along with them).

Now I wish I had kept his book because I had plenty of marginal comments documenting how so much of it was taken from other sources with no attribution (some almost verbatim).

Claiming that he speaks to God is one thing, but when he gives "God's" blessing to behavior that any sensible person would know is wrong, he cleverly entices people who are happy and relieved to know they can continue doing whatever they like with no consequences.

No wonder his adherents defend him so intensely, in light of his anything goes philosophy.

R
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Re: Nanci Danison's NDE
Reply #29 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:30pm
 
Roger:

I believe you are right to get upset about it.

CWG says:

"God (or whoever): All attack is a call for help.

Walsch: I read that in A Course in Miracles.

Whoever: I put it there."

Funny thing is, as Heisenberg said, ACIM and CWG contradict each other about some key points.




rondele wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 2:19pm:
Sorry, I just have a visceral reaction when it comes to people like Walsch.  The shenanigans he's involved with just hit my hot buttons. 

Cults like the one he initiated and continues to promote leave me cold.  As is true with other cult leaders, it's all about power and control (and the fringe benefits that go along with them).

Now I wish I had kept his book because I had plenty of marginal comments documenting how so much of it was taken from other sources with no attribution (some almost verbatim).

Claiming that he speaks to God is one thing, but when he gives "God's" blessing to behavior that any sensible person would know is wrong, he cleverly entices people who are happy and relieved to know they can continue doing whatever they like with no consequences.

No wonder his adherents defend him so intensely, in light of his anything goes philosophy.

R

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