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Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments. (Read 40114 times)
Andy B
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Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Nov 21st, 2011 at 3:38pm
 
Hi all,

I found this documentary on the Scole experiments and I have to say I found it rather good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6qSEi_sfaSU

It has been removed before so it may happen again, maybe copyright reasons?

Andy
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heisenberg69
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #1 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 6:45pm
 
Hi Andy,

i've been interested in the Scole Experiments for a number of years I'll give it a look ...

D
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Berserk2
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #2 - Dec 1st, 2011 at 1:55am
 
As amazing a case for an afterlife as has ever presented on this site!  Very long and somewhat uneven, but at its best absolutely astounding!
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I Am Dude
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #3 - Dec 2nd, 2011 at 2:31am
 
There he is!  How have you been Don? 

I watched that documentary on the Scole Experiments a couple of weeks ago.  Top notch stuff. 

The video is featured on the UFOTV youtube channel, which has many other interesting documentaries and videos.  http://www.youtube.com/show/ufotvpresents?s=1
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DocM
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #4 - Dec 2nd, 2011 at 2:49pm
 
I was initially impressed by the Scole Experiment, until I went deeper into it and found that the scientific aspect of this was less than meets the eye.  The experiments were done in the basement home of two of the mediums.  They were most always done in complete darkness, except that glowing wrist bands were worn by the mediums, so you could see them in the dark.  However, this was an old parlor trick done years ago, to fool people.  The mediums forbade them to use night vision technology or similar video  - but why?  The mediums controlled the environment in their house, not the scientists. 

I will post a link that describes in detail how the science to this was not up to the sniff test.  For example one of the more impressive findings was that they would take a factory uopened role of film, but it in the center of the room, turn off the lights, and then it would be there but when developed would have a message on the film from the spirit world.

However, the box that the film was placed in was controlled by the mediums.  When a researcher (whose name is in an article I will provide) used his own box, and maintained control of the upopened film - surprise surprise - there was no writing on the film.

The bottom line for me is that people are very convinced by materializations of objects and the like but the many of these things may be parlor tricks unless the scientists control the environment. 

I would suggest that it really is unlikely that current techniques to communicate will be this good, and this clear, otherwise they could be replicated over and over again. 

Even in great religions, Judaism and Christianity, I don't recall the leaders, prophets or saviours presenting these types of communications.  Miracles - yes, in the physical world.  Jesus may or may not have raised the dead, and likely did heal many - but he did not bring Uncle Morty out to a pitch black room with two mediums to make a table float in the air.


Doc
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #5 - Dec 2nd, 2011 at 3:54pm
 
The reasonable refutation to the Scole experiments is documented here:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4179

Keep in mind, I am a believer in the afterlife, and in what I like calling (from my now deceased friend Dave-MBS's suggestion) the primacy of consciousness.   

There is a separation of the physical from the spiritual as it applies to us who have willingly encased ourselves in flesh and rely on our own five sense and logic to say what is "real" and what is not.  Those of us who shed some of these hardened belief systems, may break through, but for various reasons, this is rather rare at the present time.


Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #6 - Dec 2nd, 2011 at 7:04pm
 
I only watched the first part and having seen just that much, I'm in agreement with Matthew.  Based on my own knowledge and experience things just don't work the way they're presented in the film.

Kathy
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #7 - Dec 2nd, 2011 at 9:53pm
 
As i've mentioned before I have been interested in the Scole Experiment ( I consider it more a field study than an experiment)for a number of years and would like to make the following points:

1. Its easy for sceptics, who were'nt there to say after after the event that x or y could have happened but this is just speculation.Its all very well to say this or that could be replicated fraudulently but no one has stepped up to the plate to replicate the phenomena under the same conditions
2.Skeptoid is a skeptic site so they would say that would'nt they just as they would debunk any other 'paranormal' phenemena which posters on this board would consider to have good evidence for - its what they do !
3. The Scole Experiments 'were taken on the road' to other locations including the Institute of Noetic Sciences - see 'The Scole Experiments' by Grant and Jane Soloman for further details.
4.Given the wide range of phenomena I find it hard to believe that it could be pulled off under the noses of the three respected scientists for 2+ years without a sniff of fraud- I'd like to see Penn and Teller do that !

I'm not a 'believer' in the Scole Experiments I just like to see fair play here and not lazy 'armchair' debunking ...
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #8 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 1:28am
 
heisenberg69 wrote on Dec 2nd, 2011 at 9:53pm:
I'm not a 'believer' in the Scole Experiments I just like to see fair play here and not lazy 'armchair' debunking ...


Hi there!

I'm not sure if your addressing me directly or not. I haven't posted on this board for a long time, so I realize you most likely haven't read any of my posts, but I'm certainly not debunking the existence of the afterlife, nor the paranormal. 

I have no doubt of the existence of both as I've experienced what people call the paranormal for more than 50 years now, and the past 30 or so years my experiences have been on a daily basis.  Infact, I feel as though I'm aware of and exist in and interact with both "worlds" simultaneously on a conscious level. 

What I doubt is the credibility of the experiments I saw in the film and of the mediums involved based on my personal knowledge of what non-physical reality is like and how it interacts with each of us. And this isn't to say everything in the film was "faked" however, if even one experiment was "tampered" with, that alone then brings up questions in regards to the others.

Common sense is a good thing.  Wink

Kathy 
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heisenberg69
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #9 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 8:58am
 
Hi Kathy,

I'm not directing comments at anyone personally and I don't want to sound too precious re the Scole Experiment !

But I would say that I think it should be considered seriously for some of the following reasons:

1. The Scole events took place over period of 5 years (1993-1998) with the scientific sessions from 2 October 1995 to 28 March 1998.

2. In addition to the three principle investigators Montague Keen, Arthur Ellison and David Fontana other credible witnesses include Dr Hans Schaer, Professor Robert Morris, Professor Donald West, Professor Archie Roy, Professor Bernard Carr, Dr Alan Gould, Dr Ernst Senkowski, Dr Kurt Hoffman, Dr Russell Targ, Dr Marilyn Schlitz and Dr Bernard Haisch.

3.Apart from Scole, Norfolk other session locations included Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands, Ibiza, Switzerland and the USA (The Scole Experiment p.73).

Given the above points I would say that given the length of the phenomenon, the different locations and the degree of scrutiny my common sense tells me that if fraud was being committed it would have been detected or at least suspected.

The Experiment was not perfect in that it was'nt conducted in full light under the direction of the scientists but are we really saying that everything that is important can be studied in such a fashion ? This why I call it a field study rather than an experiment, but that should not automatically mean that fraud is involved only it requires a precise set of parameters there in order to take place. Some researchers have described that strict positivistic approach as liking trying to prove the existence of baseball by making them play it on a basketball court !

Finally I think its important to look at the data and then make the theory rather than vice versa ! The Scole Experiment is not scientific fact but its too important not to be taken seriously.

Dave
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #10 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 9:33am
 
Further to this - physical mediumship is alive and well in the notable form of David Thompson ( see: http://circleofthesilvercord.net/ ). Dr Fiona Bowie of the Bristol University Anthropology Department reviews her experience of a David Thompson seance on her website 'The Afterlife Research Centre' available at: http://afterliferesearchcentre.ning.com/ .
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Andy B
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #11 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 2:19pm
 
Matthew,

"When a researcher (whose name is in an article I will provide) used his own box, and maintained control of the upopened film - surprise surprise - there was no writing on the film."

This particular "researcher" would be Richard Wiseman and he is quite well known for fiddling with results to suit his own beliefs. I'm not saying this is the case with the roll of film but when you look it his track record you have to admit it is a distinct possibility.

Anyway, here are some links so you can see what I'm talking about here.

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/propaganda/

http://www.skeptiko.com/134-rupert-sheldrake-on-richard-wiseman-deception/

I read somewhere that Wiseman said that the results found at Scole were "fascinating". In the link that you provided he said it was a load of rubbish. Maybe he thought they were fascinating because he could see £ signs from more work debunking this kind of thing? After all these so called skeptics do make a lot of money from their "work".

On the other hand the genuine researchers don't get anywhere near the same money or attention as them, so they're not exactly in the game for the same reasons are they?

Other than that I can see where your'e coming from with the other points you brought up  Smiley.

Heisenburg,

I couldn't agree with you more on this.

Andy

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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #12 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 3:18pm
 
I have no doubt that over the entire length of the Scole experiments it is possible that paranormal results were encountered.  I, like Kathy, feel that common sense is important, and mostly I didn't think the preliminary rounds passed the sniff test.

There is no reason I know of that the mediums should dictate the rules or pre-conditions, and make it so dark that the participants had to put on glowing wrist bands, which were a common parlor trick back then to convince a sitter that the medium hadn't moved, when, in fact they had.

Some of the proof offered -  such as placing unopened photographic 35 mm film in a box, turning off the lights, and then opening up the "lock box" and later developing the film - - all this just smacks of tricksterism. 

Think of all the 35 mm film developed before the digital age.  While there were instances of unexplained phenomenon on film (orbs - many of which are dust related),  I know of no other instances of elaborate writing coming through from the other side like this.  If so, why?   Clearly this was set up as a parlor trick.

The best objective experiments would only be set up by the scientists, where basic conditions would be controlled by them, and not the mediums/mystics. 

Objective science is, however based on the physical world and physical senses.  Spirit/consciousness is not bound by physicality.  The idea that the afterlife must be "proved" by writing on a roll of camera film, speaks to the ignorance about real knowledge or perception. 

People will only be open to the existence of the afterlife if they let go of belief systems which only recognize the five senses as reliable evidence.

M
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #13 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 7:05pm
 
I have viewed the Scole video twice now and want to provisionally challenge my friends, Matthew and Kathy, on 4 points:

(1) The Skeptoid critique seems factually incorrect on key points.  Matthew, have you actually reviewed the film in detail with that critique in mind?  Kathy admits to having watched only part of it.

(2) David Fontana was present at Scole.  The phenomena he witnesses nicely parallel his well-witnessed accounts of physical mediumship where there was no darkness (See "Is There an Afterlife?  A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence").  The materializations parallel those I've reported in NDE and ADC cases, some involving people I know well.

(3) In the video, a professional stage magician is brought in at Scole to detect possible fraud and is convinced that there is no trickery. 

(4) The most impressive phenomena in the 2nd part seem exempt from the Skeptoid criticism: e. g. (a) the disconnected hand that touches a woman by a wall where no incarnate hand could reach; (b) the levitated whirling table wtih many crystals on it that don't fall off; (c) the crystal that the group handles before it levitates and then can still be viewed in a dematarialized state, but can no longer be touched; the contacts with deceased loved ones; (d) the impressive display of paranormal phenomena in separate locations; (e) the unopened film pack that has been signed by a scientist and remains sealed.

I haven't read the 200 page Scole manuscript; so I admit I might be mistaken.  It is important to me to determine just how credible these experiments are.  I will view the film a third time with the Skeptoid critique in mind.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #14 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 8:13am
 
Andy,

congratulations - you've managed to do something I never have, get people on this board talking about  the Scole Experiments ! Regarding Richard Wiseman I'm not sure if he needs to  directly 'fiddle' results only to have a closed minded perspective. You know, living in the UK as I do, that when some debunking needs  to be done its either him or Susan Blackmore who is looked to but I'm not sure that they are essentially dishonest, at least not consciously so. Rather, they are  subject to the 'experimenter effect' whereby they produce consistently negative results even if they perform experiments with the exact protocols used by those getting positive results because the experimenter's expectations is always a variable in the investigation.


Mathew – ‘The best objective experiments would only be set up by the scientists, where basic conditions would be controlled by them, and not the mediums/mystics’.

To this I will directly quote from the conclusion of the ‘Scole Report’ :
‘... (critics say) if only you had thought (or been able) to control for .... Field work in psychical research is so vulnerable to this kind of dismissive verdict that one may well question if in fact it is worth the major investment time, energy and money it involves. Our answer is that in any area of human behaviour, effects that are only observable under the tightly controlled conditions of a laboratory are not really of enduring use or interest. If psychic abilities exist, then they may reasonably be supposed to happen not just in the laboratory or real life, whether in the séance room or in familiar surroundings. If they do, it is reasonable to propose that they are worth looking into, that efforts be made to find the ways in which they are compatible with the rest of our known science: indeed, ways in which they may not only add to our scientific knowledge, but augment our understanding of what it is to be human and whether or not life carries meaning outside that attributed to it by reductionist philosophies’.

‘I have no doubt that over the entire length of the Scole experiments it is possible that paranormal results were encountered’.

I don’t quite understand this, you seem to be implying  that the Scole events were maybe part genuine/part fraudulent. But any positive evidence of paranormality would invalidate the sceptics position according to William James famous dictum about it only taking one white crow to establish that not all crows are black. Again it’s important to point out that no investigator actually present at the events (lasting multiple years remember) suspected fraud was taking place. Its not impossible that the events were all carefully fabricated (requiring the cooperation of many people) but then there is a finite possibility that the moon landings were staged too !
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #15 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 9:26am
 
Don,

I watched about half of the first video, and I may watch further.  However, I have read up on the Scole experiments before. 

I am a firm believer in paranormal phenomenon.  I have posted here on the P.E.A.R. center at Princeton,(now defunct) whose sole purpose was to experiment in the area of psi and the effect of human will on random number generating machines - shielded from all known fraud or interference.  The results of those studies were, in my mind quite impressive.

I have no doubt that there may be gifted mediums and psychics out there.  Certain video taped readings done of George Anderson smacked of authenticity to me on a gut level, and I was told that there was no way he could have known prior to meeting the person he was to read who it would be to have done prior "research."

So, yes, I believe in psi, and in my heart that our consciousness goes on when we shed the physical body.  That being said, I have a problem with the parlor trick mentality these experiments evoke - and most importantly, the idea that we are looking only for physical verification (a ghostly apparation, a whilring table, etc.) as a method to verify that which is nonphysical.

Houdini reproduced almost all of the results of trance mediums in his day in darkened rooms he had set up.  It was his calling.  There are many illusionists who can give you absoultely convincing apparitions, materializations and the like.  While these tangible phenomenon make the gullible nod there heads and say "yes, yes, this is proof," I find it to be the least likely evidence.  Don, a single stage magician may or may not have the talents to debunk the illusions.  There are several accomplished ones today who likely would, if they were willing to participate with it.   Some are more talented than others.

Why would a discarnage materialize a coin or a flower?  Most sources, the best being Swedenborg, speak of the discarnate souls losing track of the physical world and its ways, rather than being connected to it.  To my mind, it would be infinitely more difficult for a discarnate spirit to materialize an object than to communicate to us in meditation or in a dream.  Or to open our eyes to a synchronicity of time or events.  These latter forms of communication are more subtle but more in line with the way non-physical communication of the mind works.

The writing on undeveloped film seemed like a patricularly dull trick to me.  If it was so easily accomplished, it should be a relatively common form of communication by now - sort of like EVP - an yet, we hear little to nothing about it in terms of common occult communication.  The film is rolled and tightly wound inside a container.  Tell me how, in any logical way, there can be elaborate drawings, etc. done from the nonphysical which would get impressed on the film without unwinding it? 

As to the last question, how can I believe some communications were real, when others may have been out and out fraud - I simply leave the door open that certain talents were at hand, and certain communications MAY have been genuine.  But clearly, there was an agenda here at play, and a desire to make their point across the board, possibly to the detriment of the truth.

Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #16 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 11:17am
 
' I have posted here on the P.E.A.R. center at Princeton,(now defunct) whose sole purpose was to experiment in the area of psi and the effect of human will on random number generating machines - shielded from all known fraud or interference.  The results of those studies were, in my mind quite impressive'

Yes I agree, but like impressing images on unopened film that is inexplicable too under current scientific understanding- why choose one as possible and the other impossible in an arbitrary way ? How can we understand all the motivations and purposes of those purported to be in the spirit world (just as we can't in the physical world) ?

Ultimately people make their own choice on what they believe but personally I would'nt want to limit myself to accepting only new data that conforms to my previous ideas of how the spirit world should behave ...

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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #17 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 11:38am
 
Heisenberg,

Regarding parlor tricks and the like - yes it is true, we all decide what evidence to accept or discard.  How then does one discern - this is the real question.  And as we have noted on this board, it usually comes down to more than just an intelectual process.  Sometimes your "gut" tells you, sometimes you just know. 

Although I am Jewish, I have a great respect for  (and resonate with )the New Testament and I am fairly well versed in certain areas.  A Jew for Jesus?  Possibly.  But I digress...

One passage in the NT discusses false prophets.  "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

In essence, the passage asks one to couple the miracles of the false prophets or illusionists with their overall character.  I do find the Scole researchers to be a sincere bunch, with good character -  and if there were deception, I do not think that all would have to have been in on the deception - this actually enhances the sincerity of the overall project. 

The best proof of the continuation of consciousness is unfortunately done deep within each person, as they recognize that a truth has been revealed.  However, in the physical world, there are ways to try to unequivocally show there is persistence of consciousness or consciousness separate from physical life.  One such attempt is being arranged in a multi-center hospital study where many Emergency Rooms have agreed to put an agreed on writing and images on their ceilings where people most commonly have episodes of clinical death - after which they return to their bodies.

The scientists involved in this research are:  Dr. Peter Fenwick and Dr. Sam Parnia, of  Southampton General Hospital, in England.

A summary of the study:

"Parnia and his colleague, Dr Peter Fenwick, a consultant neurophysiologist at the Radcliffe Infirmary, Oxford, reason that if the patient really is having an out-of-body experience, this should be testable. First, a person floating above their body should be able to describe events that they can see while they are clinically dead that can be corroborated later. Secondly, the patient has a unique view of the hospital bed and could see objects that other people cannot.  Parnia has placed cards on the top of wardrobes, or hanging from the ceiling, in cardiac wards - a pink dog, for instance. 'These are not things the patient or the staff would associate with a hospital; they cannot see them and they do not know they are there,' he says... If we have someone who leaves their body, is able to identify the card we have left and report about events that happened in the resuscitation theatre which they could not have known about, then we would have to ask some serious questions about the science of consciousness,'  Fenwick says."

What is impressive in this research is that the hospitals and medical physicians involved all agreed to this controlled method of testing, to look, in an unbiased way on NDEs that occur and then report on the data - confirmatory or otherwise - for consciousness during clinical death. 

If confirmed, one will conclusively say that there is some documentation of conscious perception outside of the physical body during physical death.  This is not done in pitch black rooms with floating apparitions or parlor type backgrounds. 

By their fruits you will know them.  Yes Heisenberg, I agree with you - at some point you decide what to believe.  And though I consider myself to be open minded, I speak from my gut.  And at least part of the Scole "fruit" left a bad taste in my mouth.

I will research the rest since I am curious about the taste of others for this fruit.

M
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #18 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 2:43pm
 
Heisenburg,

"congratulations - you've managed to do something I never have, get people on this board talking about  the Scole Experiments ! Regarding Richard Wiseman I'm not sure if he needs to  directly 'fiddle' results only to have a closed minded perspective. You know, living in the UK as I do, that when some debunking needs  to be done its either him or Susan Blackmore who is looked to but I'm not sure that they are essentially dishonest, at least not consciously so. Rather, they are  subject to the 'experimenter effect' whereby they produce consistently negative results even if they perform experiments with the exact protocols used by those getting positive results because the experimenter's expectations is always a variable in the investigation."

I think the reason for such interest in the thread I started is the documentary itself. Whether you believe the scole experiments to be true or false you have to admit that the documentary itself is brilliant, it's actually out on dvd it's called "the afterlife experiments. I've also noticed that some have admitted to not watching all of it, really they should watch all of it as in my opinion it's worth the 90 mins of time.

As for Wiseman, me saying he fiddled the results was a mistake  Roll Eyes, thanks for pointing that out to me heisenburg. I'll go with what you said about the experimenter effect for sure.

Although in one of the links that I provided it mentions one of his books, it's called Paranormality. I bought this a few months ago, a couple of subjects spring to mind where he doesn't give the full story as in doing this it better fits the point he's trying to make. One being Jaytee the dog and the other being about the Fox sisters. I'm not saying his findings are wrong in either case but it begs the question, why leave certain things out of it?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paranormality-Why-what-isnt-there/dp/0230752985/ref=sr_1...

Here's a link to his book for anyone who's interested. It's not a bad book at all, I enjoyed it and I'm not afraid of reading an opposing opinion to the opinion that I have. Although his tactics have backfired from my perspective as what he has done for me is given me an insight into the mind of one of the strongest "skeptics" of paranormal claims.

He also makes the claim that we are a product of our brains too  Wink.

Andy
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #19 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 3:12pm
 
Hello Don,

There isn't much I would add to what Matthew has already stated, eloquently I might add.  Just as change is a constant, so is uncertainty. That, in my opinion is simply the nature of evolving consciousness in which consciousness is ever exploring and interacting with that which arises.  Experiments such as these will most likely always produce elements of uncertainty because without that element the process of evolutionary growth would likely stagnate.  When uncertainly is present we will always have believers and nonbelievers and as has been stated, ultimately we each must decide. 

Exploring the possibilities, reflecting on them, even struggling with them to internalize meaning and making a choice is the process that comes from uncertainty. It's a process each of us must take a personal part in for individual spiritual growth to occur.  Strong evidence convincing someone to believe something only creates belief. The process has been eliminated.  Self-reflection is very much a part of personal progress.  Yet it seems much of the time people are still willing to believe what they are told without going through the process, so even if science were able to produce enough convincing evidence showing the existence of the afterlife, people would still need to go through the process of individual reflection and change in order to progress to conscious betterment.

As you know firsthand, mystical experience and the paranormal can be spectacular and life changing.  It is the personal events that drive us most significantly toward meaningful purpose and change.  Yet even having personal mystical interaction with the non-physical world can produce uncertainty while at the same time producing a certainty and drive/desire within us to learn, grow and progress spiritually.
 
Now I know I'm not saying anything you haven't already stated at one time or another in so many words.  And I know you have lots of common sense... well...maybe unless it involves something you get super excited about.  Grin  Then again, that's probably true of us all.  Roll Eyes

Kathy
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #20 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 9:27pm
 
Mathew-

I only tend to post on here sporadically but I quite often  look in and find myself in agreement with many of your perceptive comments so I respect your thoughts on the Scole Experiment. I also think that NDEs are an important area of study and I am interested in work by people such as Peter Fenwick and Pim Van Lommel and any attempt to bring some objectivity should be welcomed. I also agree with you that gut instinct is important with regards to sniffing out the 'real deal'.

But I am uncomfortable with the idea that apports and messages on film are products of 'parlour games'  when anything which provides objective evidence of survival I consider to be important, whatever form that may take. The verses on the film, for example, often seem to relate to work by Oliver Lodge and Frederick Myers both stalwarts of surivival evidence in the 19th century and like the Myers' cross-correspondences make the researchers work to make the relevent connections- not what I would consider to be parlour games.

Incidentally, Robin Foy, whose house the Scole events took place at has a website here: http://robinsphysicalphenomena.webs.com/ and so questions about Scole can addressed straight to him !

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #21 - Dec 4th, 2011 at 11:08pm
 
The Myers cross correspondences are very compelling data.  For those who don't know about it, in brief, Myers decided that if post-mortem communication to mediums was to be valid, one would have to prove that the medium was receiving messages of which he/she could not have known through the reading of a living person's mind.

It is said that Myers, upon passing, sent messages to several different mediums, but gave them messages related to the Classics (of which they were not aware).  Each message Myers provided post-mortem was supposedly meaningless in and of itself, but was  a single piece of a puzzle, which when put together, gave a clear message from the afterlife. 

Myers reasoned that this would be indisputable proof of survival.  Since mediums received these mini coded messages all over the world, and the code could only be cracked on assembling them together, he figured this would unequivocally prove that he survived physical death. 

An elegant method for showing survival. 

M
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #22 - Dec 5th, 2011 at 3:13pm
 
Matthew,

I watched the Youtube video on Scole a third time and am convinced that your concerns about fraud are overall unfounded.  Much of the material involves Scole people investigating ADCs and EVPs outside Scole.   In my view, precautions were taken for much of the Scole material that exempt it from your skeptic's criticism.  Other Scole material is so spectacular that it seems to need no precautions, though I too wish the darkness had not been necessary.   

My reaction feels ironic because, as you know, when I was regularly active on this site, I was the most skeptical about channeled material.  To be fair, what I need to do, and will do when I have time, is itemize and offer specific comments on the material to demonstrate what I mean.  My biggest problem with the Scole material is the "deafening unsaid."  By that I mean my expectations were raised, when I took the material at face value.  The best of Swedenberg's ADC contacts provide breath-taking verifications that the deceased communicator is authentic, but most of the Scole paranormal material features materializations and psychokinesis which, though impressive, could have been replaced by more obvious evidence confirming the identity of the deceased.  So I do wonder whether much of this material merely reflects the psychic powers of the mediums rather than genuine contact.  But overall, most of the material seems either truly paranormal or fraudulently produced. I think fraud is the less likely explanation, but as I said, I will comment in detail when I find the time.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #23 - Dec 5th, 2011 at 4:57pm
 
I only wish one of the objective scientists had been bold enough to bring in a flash light and turn it on during the communication.  Either one would see a figure dressed in black performing a trick, or the true paranormal nature would have been verified.  Admittedly, there would have been a loss of trust involved - not saying that is a good thing.

On what grounds were the researchers not allowed to use infrared cameras or night vision during the extreme darkness?  I mean come on, give me a break here - this technology was forbidden by the mediums, but why?  We have no evidence that the technology would have any deleterious effects on disincarnate spirits.  We do, however have evidence that a huckster would be caught in a flat out fraud, if the lights were turned on at a critical moment. 

I will view the entire series, and also address more comments, but the above questions are important ones.  When one is in the Monroe institute, or at one of Bruce's seminars, there is no prerequisite of total darkness to achieve communication with a loved one.   

Why would these mediums require utter darkness?  George Anderson, and a host of modern mediums, sit in well lit rooms and say they are in constant communication with our loved ones or that they surround the sitter, right there in broad daylight.  Is it a coincidence that the most marvelous phenomenon of ghostly images, levitations, etc occurred when this strict code of darkness was present?

My two cents.  But I don't recall Swedenborg mentioning the requirement of complete darkness or the banning of night vision or infrared technology.  There is no logical reason the researchers should have acquiesed to this request.

Does that invalidate every communication - from hours and hours of study?  Of course not.  But it speaks to me, and it is a real sticking point in the objective discussion.

Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #24 - Dec 5th, 2011 at 6:26pm
 
Mathew,

I seem to recall one scene outside of Scole where the scientists secretly ignored the mediums' request to turn off infrared cameras and got film of paranormal results.  At Scole the film cases were usually unopened sealed packages placed in the center to prevent anyone from sneaking up unnoticed.  I'll be interested to see what your case by case analysis of the film yields.  People felt the touch or contact of levitating hands and other objects by walls where no one could get behind them.  There seems to have been enough vigilance that cheating over that long period of time would have been detected.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #25 - Dec 6th, 2011 at 2:33am
 
From Victor Zammit's site a possible explanation why trust is important in physical mediumship and the physical dangers to mediums:

' Eventually, it was the turn of one of the substitute sitters to be greeted. As Rohan (the materialised spirit) was about to take his hands in welcome, the man sprang forward and grabbed him!

Throwing his arms around the spirit figure, he held on to him tightly, shouting, "I've got you!" The sitter was obviously convinced he had captured the draped medium in the act of duplicity, masquerading as a spirit form.

As Rohan's figure quickly dematerialised there was a loud groan from Alec in the cabinet. Then carne a cry of pain as the ectoplasm swiftly returned to his body with the impact of a sledge-hammer.

The treacherous sitter fell dazed to the floor as the "solid" body he had held so tightly minutes before disappeared. I threw myself on him, desperately flailing with my hands, sobbing: "Oh don't! You'll kill my husband! You fool, you'll kill him!"

The man looked up at me, his eyes wide, terrified. The realisation dawned on him it had not been the medium he had grasped, but what it purported to be, a fully materialised spirit form.

Meanwhile the second impostor, taking advantage of the commotion that ensued, rushed to the window and pulled aside the closed curtains, having previously tampered with them during the "meditation" session earlier. This revealed his confederates outside the window. They had a battery of cameras focused on the seance room, on the cabinet in particular.

Lenses immediately clicked furiously as flash bulbs exploded. I glanced frantically in the cabinet's direction, and realised with profound relief that our guides were doing all in their power to protect their medium. They had swathed the curtains around Alec, completely enveloping him so that he was immune to the blinding flashes of light being so ruthlessly directed at him.

I was utterly bewildered and sick with dread for Alec, knowing what he must have suffered by the sudden impact of the returning ectoplasm. It all happened so quickly everybody was stunned.

The two journalists were the first to recover. They made a dash for the door in a bid to escape, but my niece Phyllis and her husband, Trevor, followed close on their heels in hot pursuit. One chose the kitchen exit. Trevor rescued him from the clutches of the dog who added its services in intercepting the fleeing man. The other ran wildly down the passage and was cornered by a very irate Phyllis and several male sitters in the lounge. This, to his chagrin, he found securely locked. Escape was impossible. All arrogance deserted him. He cringed apologetically.

"You tried to kill my uncle," Phyllis raged. "Why? Did you think he was a fake?" When the man did not answer,

Phyllis went on angrily, "Now you know he isn't." In disgust she told him to leave and take his friend with him. Two very frightened men, sobered by what they had seen, ran off into the night to join their confederates in a waiting car parked some distance down the street.

When Alec came out of trance he was patently very ill. He had a severe pain which persisted for some weeks in his solar plexus. A doctor was called. He treated Alec weekly for many months. Rohan, too, suffered adverse effects and needed, we were told by the scientist, a period of recuperation.

There was a sequel to this unhappy encounter. A short time after the "exposure", Alec and I were sitting in conversation with a doctor friend when my husband stopped speaking in mid sentence and was entranced. Alec's eyes closed, his face became relaxed. A soft baritone voice announced, "Rohan."

"I have come to tell you," he said, "that greater care must be taken of the medium. If there should be a repetition of the accident which took place a few weeks ago we will not be able to protect the medium as we then did. It was fortunate it was I who was materialised at the time. I knew what to do and was able to take the full shock of the encounter. By the time it reached the medium it was less severe. But I doubt that I shall be able to do this again. Take care!" I thanked Rohan and promised it would never occur again if it was humanly possible to avoid such a catastrophe. I then raised a point which had been worrying me.

"Rohan, what about all those photographs they took and are going to publish?" I asked.

"Do not worry about that," he said. "We have made certain all the films will be blank."

So it turned out to be. The magazine had promised readers in a previous issue it would give full photo coverage to the "exposure" of Alec's mediumship. These pictures never appeared. Obviously there were no photographs to print.

When Vidie heard how the exchange of seats had been engineered she was very upset and reacted in her typical outspoken manner. She wrote a letter to the man who had originally secured the two seats. "Herewith your 30 pieces of silver!" were among her words. The Biblical inference was appropriate and, she hoped, humiliating to the perpetrator of such shameful treachery.

I noticed a great change in Alec after the exposure attempt. His health was not as robust as before. Something seemed to have gone out of him. He slowed down considerably. Alec had always been such an energetic person, constantly looking for things to do about the home. Now everything seemed to be an effort.

Vidie thought a trip to Britain might help Alec, and restore his zest for living. In May 1962 we accompanied her to the United Kingdom. Alec did not look at all well. I decided that as soon as we reached Cardiff he should see our doctor and have a check-up.
We visited Peggy, our dear pianist friend of yore, and spent happy hours chatting of the old days.

After we left her, and were on our way to visit Alec's brother I noticed that Alec's driving was very erratic. He seemed to have difficulty keeping the car on a straight course. Alec managed to negotiate the vehicle through Cardiff's busy streets without mishap. We were driving slowly along a quiet road where his brother lived when the car suddenly swerved violently and landed on the pavement, where it came to a halt. Alec was slumped in his seat looking very strange.

"I can't feel anything down my right side," he gasped. "My right leg and arm are numb." His speech was slightly slurred.

Fortunately my brother-in-law, anticipating our arrival, was waiting by his gate. He saw the mishap take place and quickly ran to give assistance. Moving Alec into the passenger seat, he got behind the wheel and took us to his house. He then drove us back to an aunt's home. Alec refused to allow a doctor to be called. He did not wish to disturb the household. By then, it was midnight.

The doctor came early next morning and told me he would get my husband to hospital at once. As we were in Cardiff where all our old healing circle members lived, I felt Alec would be better at home receiving treatment from them. The doctor reluctantly agreed, provided Alec was watched very carefully.

Alec was sedated for five days. When the doctor made another examination he was very surprised at the improvement in my husband's condition. But Alec continued to make good progress. We remained in Cardiff for a further four weeks. Vidie came down to drive us back to London.

The sea air and plenty of rest on our return trip did Alec a lot of good. He seemed very much better. When we arrived in Durban to stay with our children they were dismayed at the change in their father.

It took two years before he was anything like his old self again.

Once home, we gave occasional circles, but only for immediate friends, not the public. Alec's confidence in sitters had been sadly shaken. He could never again be completely relaxed and at ease as in the days before the seance room betrayal. His health was not as good as previously. Spirit friends had difficulty in materialising.

When we first sat nothing happened, but we were asked to be patient as there would have to be a period of redevelopment. There did not seem to be enough power for materialisations to form completely, or as strongly, as before. Sometimes they could not build to their proper height. On other occasions only portions of their figures took shape, perhaps an arm, leg or face, unrecognisable in incompleteness. When a form did build fully there would be a long wait until the next materialisation. Before the incident, when one spirit form returned to the cabinet another would step out almost immediately.

'
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #26 - Dec 6th, 2011 at 2:44am
 
Further to this I was booked to attend a David Thompson seance earlier this year (in the event I was unwell) but it was made clear to me that the danger to the medium was very real from improper behaviour and a room protocol list was given to me with the understanding that I needed to b ID checked on entry.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #27 - Dec 6th, 2011 at 3:43am
 
Heisenberg,

I am open to the idea of real contact, but every contact I have had with the other side, and many verified cases of contact, leave me with no doubt that the danger stated in your passage is - well - how shall I say this nicely?  - overstated if not completely made up.

I have seen sincere mediums give readings where they were speaking directly to and through a deceased loved one, in the daylight and although there was no deliberate materialization of an object, there was no danger implied or precautions taken to the medium.

Admittedly, the entire concept of people giving up their vocal cords or body for a spirit to "enter,"  or use already sets a bad precedent, as it implies a loss of control from the side of the living, and almost invites fraud, misinterpreted psi, etc (if real). 

Where was the documentation from the alleged debunkers after this incident?  Without more information we are listening to heresay and tall tales from a biased source.  Campfire stuff. 

Seances first entered the modern world in the mid 1700s from written records, and peaked with the spiritualist movement in the 1800s.  However, as hucksterism spread, there were several large public investigations which debunked many illusionists of that time in a convincing manner: (from an article on the seance)

" During the latter half of the 19th century, a number of Spiritualist mediums began to advocate the use of specialized tools for conducting séances, particularly in leader-assisted sessions conducted in darkened rooms. "Spirit trumpets" were horn-shaped speaking tubes that were said to magnify the whispered voices of spirits to audible range. "Spirit slates" consisted of two chalkboards bound together that, when opened, were said to reveal messages written by spirits. "Séance tables" were special light-weight tables which were said to rotate, float, or levitate when spirits were present. "Spirit cabinets" were portable closets into which mediums were placed, often bound with ropes, in order to prevent them from manipulating the various aforementioned tools.
The exposure of supposed mediums whose use of séance tools derived from the techniques of stage magic has been disturbing to many believers in spirit communication. In particular, the 1870s exposures of the Davenport Brothers as illusionists and the 1887 report of the Seybert Commission brought an end to the first historic phase of Spiritualism. Stage magicians like John Neville Maskelyne and Harry Houdini made a side-line of exposing fraudulent mediums during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In 1976, M. Lamar Keene described deceptive techniques that he himself had used in séances; however, in the same book, Keene also stated that he still had a firm belief in God, life after death, ESP, and other psychic phenomena.
The exposures of fraud by tool-using mediums have had two divergent results: Skeptics have used historic exposures as a frame through which to view all spirit mediumship as inherently fraudulent, while believers have tended to eliminate the use of tools but continued to practice mediumship in full confidence of its spiritual value to them."

The Seybert Commission was a group of faculty at the University of Pennsylvania who in 1884-1887 investigated a number of respected spiritualist mediums, uncovering fraud or suspected fraud in every case that they examined.

Anyone who puts value in the story proposed rather one-sidedly about the dangers of 18th century ectoplasm causing injury to a medium, is entering into a kind of belief system in a process that is dictated to us solely by the medium (guru), and thus a matter of belief rather than a "known" truth.  While I don't completely discount discarnate ghostly hands and tables levitating, I have found a trove of the same feats described in Scole used by illusionists since around the 1800s, but rarely before then.  I have also seen reports of mediums who were unafraid to give readings out in the light.  Now why do you suppose that is?

Why do people consider that they need to have the nonphysical materialize in the physical to be their proof of life after death?  It makes far more sense to me that knowledge of what could only have been known by the deceased or the return of a temporarily deceased person (NDE), would be the best evidence of the continuation of consciousness. 

At the height of the spiritualist movement, large numbers of mediums and illusionists were unmasked as frauds in a most telling way - sort of like Toto going behind the curtain in the movie The Wizard of Oz to find the man behind the smoke and mirrors.  Houdini himself did this many times, and wrote at least two texts on this.

Just as some on this thread ask for us to examine the Scole data in more detail, it is incumbent on us to examine the past, the notable tricks that were debunked over a century ago by others.  Examples of this can be found with relative ease (Houdini's books are still available).  Or on the web, articles such as;

http://www.prairieghosts.com/seance2.html

Either way, I guess we decide what is real to us, as is always the case. 

Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #28 - Dec 6th, 2011 at 8:20am
 
The Seybert commission report, performed at the University of Pennsylvania from the 1800s is available, for free online:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?pageno=1&fk_files=1482787

This was a pivotal report wherein the University advertised and searched for mediums to be observed doing what they do, but by scientists observing and writing down the events and trying to be objective. 

It is a fascinating read, if not a bit disheartening.  They used all of the capabilities of their time, including microscopes to show when a locked box had been tampered with, etc.   They were unable to find one example of genuine physical manifestation that was not a parlor trick. 

Admittedly, there is evidence on both sides, yet here we are over a century later, getting taken in by some of the same tricks.

M
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #29 - Dec 6th, 2011 at 7:30pm
 
Mathew-

thanks for the info on the Seybart Commission, The first point I'd like to make is that I don't think you'll find someone who believes that there are genuine mediums who does'nt also believe that there are fraudulent mediums (maybe even the majority). But just as there are dishonest used car salesmen there may be honest ones we can still buy cars from !

You don't seem to draw a distinction between physical and mental mediumship. Mental mediumship obviously would'nt need the safeguards considered necessary in physical mediumship. I do find physical mediumship especially compelling though because with the mental variety there are alternative explanations such as 'cold' reading, 'hot' reading, rater bias, lucky guesses etc etc. meaning that elaborate protocols and complex statistics need to be invoked. With the physical variety there is none of that : we have two choices : paranormality or fake. This means that if we can rule out fake logically it must be paranormal (perhaps 'super-psi but thats another matter ...).

I gave the the Alex Harris example ( I could have used others such as Helen Duncan's death or David Thompson's injury ) to give a general  indication why certain protocols might possibly be necessary in a physical seance for those who might not know. It may or may not be true but its something to consider- the only way to test it empirically is to take some physical mediums and expose them to possible harm- not happening soon !

I think we are both on the same page in so far as we both want to know if fraud is taking place- although I think that fraud is not the best explanation where you think that it is . One thing I would say is that because these events are contemporary, unlike cases from 100+ years ago, we can question parties involved in the here and now. For example I have spoken to people who have attended David Thompson seances for example who can find no evidence of fraud. But I intend to stay open-minded.

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #30 - Dec 7th, 2011 at 2:59am
 
Hi Heisenberg,

I have been researching the question of true, documented side effects to a medium from breaking the instructions or rules of a seance.  Other than the warnings you mention, I do not find any compelling literature to support the idea that you shouldn't turn the lights on, grab an apparition, etc. for fear of causing irreparable harm to the medium.  Any such references are noted by individual mediums (often cited only on V. Zammitt's site), mostly it appears to let them run the illusions/effects without question.

Helen Duncan, for example did not die until weeks after the seance was interrupted by the police, and was said by an examining doctor on the scene to have "advanced diabetes and heart disease."  I'm sure the shock of being raided by the police didn't help matters, but please....  What she was doing bound in a "spirit cabinet," (a common parlor trick device of the late 1800s)? - well it boggles the mind, as it was never a requirement for mediums and was adopted from the illusionists of the day.

Thompson's seances were reportedly rife with common or accomplished parlor tricks as well.  He would have himself bound, then draped behind a curtain, and certain thoroughly debunked items such as a spirit horn (which Houdini and others investigated reproduced the effect and disproved) would appear to fly around the room.  After his materializations, the curtain would be opened and it would be shown that he was still bound.  Bravo.  But, I mean come on, really.  This is a stage show not an ADC.

I don't distinguish between physical mediumship and mental or psychic contact, because each case should be afterlife contact either way.  I have seen myself that discarnate spirits begin to lose their association with the physical world in the second stage of death.  It is a matter as Swedenborg notes of correspondences; without physical equivalents in the realm of mind/spirit, certain earth associations and knowledge simply fade away.

The spirit horn, the whilrling levitating table, spirit writing slates were all used by the so called physical mediums, mostly since the age of spiritualism and illusionists.  I don't believe just any common person will always know recognize or know the illusions employed (this was true of Houidini's stage tricks as well).  The reason I am so strongly anti-"dog and pony show" mediumship is that I am so certain that it is, for the most part a sham.

I maintain that to contact the other side, with any real contact (physical or mental) there is no known logical reason that a show must be put on behind a curtain, and no compelling reason to allow the mediums to dictate the terms for our examination.  As you said either the contact is real or out and out fraud.  The problem is, if you accept the preconditions of the illusionists/mediums, then you prevent yourself from using your own tools of discernment. 

Illusionists have done amazing things.  David Copperfield made the statue of Liberty seem to disappear on live television.  Video of it is still available on youtube.  Yet it was a spectacular illusion.  There were thousands present on stage with him; most if not all present would have sworn to the fact that the towering statue dematerialized.  Yet Copperfield is an illusionist, and we know it was a clever trick (likely done with the audience sitting on the equivalent of a massive turntable which moved them rather than the statue). 

The Seybert report and Houdini's texts go into detail as to how most common physical medium tricks appear to work. 

But perhaps the greatest source (also available online is the modern book by a confessed physical medium named Lamar Keene called "The Psychic Mafia," in which he describes, in detail how he performed all the parlor tricks described with spirit horns and the like - and how the medium community he was part of knew all about it: 

http://members.fortunecity.com/misteryo/pm1.html

We all need to use our own powers of discernment here, but most of all, we should continue to explore on our own, in different ways - always mindful that our own explorations are usually the path to discovery. 

Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #31 - Dec 7th, 2011 at 5:44am
 
Hi Mathew,

I don't believe physical mediumship is the be all and all; just one aspect of afterlife evidence
(of many) worth giving serious attention. Again though, I'm not disputing that there are fraudulent mediums and I'm not disputing that professional magicians can do amazing things. What I am looking at is a) are these particular events faked ? and b) can professionals replicate these particular phenomena under the same conditions ?. Surely you are not saying that David Copperfield performs his stunts under the watchful eye of an investigating team trained to spot deception ?

I think there is danger in both accepting claims of either confirmed believers or sceptics in an unquestioning way. Scepticism abounds on the internet with many sites devoted to it and the same sceptics would probably also reject out of hand findings which you might have more sympathy with such as the work of PEAR for example.I'm never very impressed when people say it could have been done this way or that after the event, because its very easy to do, just as some people say that the moon landings were faked or that William Shakespeare never actually wrote any plays without producing decent evidence. Regarding Scole a number of magicians were asked to come and attend but only one, James Webster, actually attended and he concluded that the phenomena he saw were not the product of fraud.

With regards to David Thompson, the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say, he is a current practising physiical medium and his seance dates are usually on his Circle of the Silver Cord website.Why not book a date to see him and make your own mind up rather than listening to third parties who may or may not have an agenda ?

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #32 - Dec 7th, 2011 at 11:02am
 
Hi Heisenberg,

The PEAR studies were published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.  People were allowed to critique the effort, yet the final results stood the criticism - though some interpret the findings in their own manner.

As to your question about attending Thompson's seances - I would not be averse to it, but it is not on my bucket list.  Let us, if you will delve into how he decided to use spirit horns, spirit cabinets etc., in order to communicate with the deceased.  These devices have been notoriously debunked, so there is a high likelihood, that he learned his techniques from an accomplished illusionist.  What exactly does that tell you about his "gift"?  Is there any reason he has to use these devices developed by the illusionists?  None of the visits from other mystics or people from TMI make any mention of the need to use "spirit horns" or bind a medium in a spirit cabinet behind a curtain and turn the lights out.  The simplicity behind the idea that this is a set up for illusion is so clear.  Keane, in his book the Psychic Mafia laughed at the general public saying that a "true believer" would always buy into his ploy.  Even after he came out and said he never really made contact, he was still approached.   Ah well.

Whirling tables, spirit horns and slate writing all came around during the same era - and many, many were exposed as frauds.  Houdini and the other investigators who were magicians were amazed that the physical mediums took stage gimicks directly from their known repetoire! 

Do I want to see a medium bound, put behind a curtain, then have the lights dimmed?  No.  Not unless you promise me free tickets to Vegas and a steak dinner for me and my family as part of the deal.

I am open to real contact.  I leave the possibility out there that a rare legit. medium may exist who does the physical stuff, but for the most part - everything I know about consciousness and the afterlife shouts fraud and hucksterism in this arena. 

I am continuing to evaluate both the Scole video and the particulars, so I will post more when I get a chance.

Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #33 - Dec 7th, 2011 at 3:23pm
 
Hi Mathew,

I would love to take you and your family to Vegas but there is a credit crunch on you know!  Wink .

I agree that spirit lights, trumpets, apports and the rest are pretty off the wall to most people but they are attention grabbing and that may be the point i.e. 'in your face' unsubtlety you just can't ignore.

Certainly, to my knowledge, Scole has never been in any peer-reviewed journals, but not everything of value ends up in those generally conservative periodicals anyway.Regarding peer-review all I will say is that Scole convinced some serious thinkers like Fontana et al. (listed at the start of the thread) that it was more than just parlour games ...

D

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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #34 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 4:23pm
 
Just a thought I had earlier.

If physical mediumship is fraud then why are people like David Thompson allowed to get away with it?

Surely in this kind of mediumship fraud would be the easiest to detect especially with what you have described Matthew.

Mental mediumship is more difficult of course but there could still be evidence especially if hot reading was involved, cold reading will be easily detectable too, by the right people of course.

Other than a disclaimer on a receipt, which is put on some psychic hotlines (for entertainment purposes only) I can't see how they aren't all doing a stretch in prison for fraud.

If I bought a t.v and when I got home the box was full of slabs with no t.v and a lot of other people have had the same experience as myself, I'm pretty sure that the authorities would not be best pleased by this. Fraudulent mediumship is the same thing as this, fraud is fraud no matter what the subject is.

So why is it allowed to happen?

It's a pretty simple question but nevertheless is quite an important factor in this I think.

Andy

P.S. I'm sure that people have already complained of fraud.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #35 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 5:25pm
 
If you read the book The Psychic Mafia - free online, it chronicles Lamar Keene's real life (an autobiography) as a fraudulent physical medium, and the many famous mediums he met along the way, who worked with him, shared information on clients, and shared tricks of the trade. 

Physical mediums are quite popular because they are impressive, like magicians, and because true believers come back for more.  In fact, after Keene confessed that he was a fraud, he was amazed - former clients still begged him to do readings for him!   They simply would not believe or could not believe that it wasn't true contact. 

Since the beginning of this thread, I have done extensive research into this area, and am convinced that the vast majority of people who use "tools of the trade" such as cabinets into which the medium is bound, spirit horns which seem to float, etc. are frauds who have learned from frauds.  Keene explains how these devices came into being and how one generation trains another.  He is quite credible since, he was a practicing physical medium showcased throughout the United States for decades. 

He does note that there were some mediums who thought that they made contact with the other side, but that these were usually not the impressive mediums who had the biggest followings. 

If you want to read his book online, it is free and fascinating.

Incidentally, when Keene's book came out, he was attacked, and suffered a gunshot wound as a result.  Apparently, someone was none too happy with his breach of the code of thieves....


Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #36 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 7:12pm
 
I agree, fraudulent mediums should be exposed.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #37 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 7:30pm
 
Hi Andy,

the Windbridge Institute who work with mental mediums in controlled studies, and publish results in peer-reviewed journals, use an eight-step selection process before mediums are allowed to work with them. Anyone walking in off the street can say they have mediumship capabilities but this process makes them prove it . One of the problems with sceptics who test mediums is that they tend to use anyone that calls themself a medium with or without ability- thus skewing the results.

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #38 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 8:18pm
 
I'm skeptical of mental mediums because of well-documented cases in which a psychologist created a fictional character and asked the mediun to channel him, and the medium channeled this fictional character accurately and paranormally as if he were really dead and were trying to reassure the sitter.  I'm also skeptical because of cases in which the medium channels a supposedly deceased personality accurately and paranormally, only to learn later that the sitter was mistaken about the channeled person's demise and that the channeled person was alive during the sitting and knew nothing about it.

In my view, the most compelling cases of physical mediumship are summarized in David Fontana's book, "Is There an Afterlife?"
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #39 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 4:25am
 
I think we've discussed mental mediumship on here before and reached differing conclusions concerning the genuineness of contact but it does kind of reinforce the idea that the 'bells and whistles' of physical mediumship is needed ...
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #40 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 8:39am
 
See Heis,

I disagree.  Because of the sheer hucksterism of the illusionists, and all the facts involved in having to turn off the lights - which never was required prior to the age of the illusionists in the 1800s - it makes more sense to me that the best method of contact is the connection by the mental medium in ways which appear to have a verification. 

However, I should say this.  Because fraud is often found with any second hand knowledge, it is the self-exploration that TMI, Bruce and others propose that is the best method of making afterlife contact.  Unfortunately, this takes the most work - to open your mind to exploring the possibilities and rid yourself of hang ups and hindering belief systems. 

I am not as bothered as Don is by the examples he mentions of errors in mental mediumship; to me it verifies that there is a mental plane of existence independent of the physical world.  If a medium may read minds - where exactly does that take place?  Conventional science does not truly believe in the existence of a mental plane.  To science, mind is sort of a redundant process, not a true plane of existence.

If a medium can pick up details on a living person's mind, or on a mentally created story, there are other implicatons here - that the realm of thought is a real plane, independent of the physical world, possibly our "real" plane of existence.  Yes, yes I know, the purists would prefer that the medium's abilities always contact just Focus 27 or other realms of the dead in the same way each time.   

Bottom line - find your own ways to explore.  And why are you trying to make contact, anyway?  What do you do after knowing that there is an afterlife?  How do you live your life in a meaningful way?  That sounds corny, but it deserves a thread of its own.


M
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #41 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 9:09am
 
Mathew-

I agree with pretty much all you write above and some kind of telepathic process in mediumship is still paranormal as far as modern science is concerned and so beyond the pale to such scientists. The reason why I believe any real afterlife corroborative evidence (from wherever it comes from) is important is in 'a rising tide raises all ships' kind of way.By this I mean that positive evidence in one area provides credibility in another. For example Bruce's approach to contact would be very difficult without a belief that some kind of survival is at least possible; so I don't find these different approaches (NDE,mediumship,ADC etc) as mutually exclusive but complementary. I personally would'nt want to rule out anything a priori.

Regarding physical mediumship what I will say is that because fraud has been been so well publicised in the past modern researchers need to well versed in methods would-be hucksters use, and for the most part I think they are.

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #42 - Dec 11th, 2011 at 4:14pm
 
Ah yes, the scole experiments is a perfect example of how not to perform paranormal testing.

The following is true:

1. Make sure you let the medium choose the location! Don't have the testers supply a closed laboratory environment for the testing to take place. This helps add confusion and possible scams.

2. Always make sure there is a period in which the film is unwatched and could easily be tampered with.

3. If the mediums say no infrared cameras, simply oblige them. They couldn't be trying to hide something in the dark... could they....?

The bottom line? The scole experiments were a joke. A bad joke. Until someone takes the mediums, provides full body cavity searches, and re-does the experiments in a controlled, multi camera'd, laboratory room, we can consider all of the results completely and utterly suspect.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #43 - Dec 12th, 2011 at 3:52am
 
Hi Focus27,

'Until someone takes the mediums, provides full body cavity searches, and re-does the experiments in a controlled, multi camera'd, laboratory room, we can consider all of the results completely and utterly suspect'

are you really saying that all that is non-fraudulent/important can be replicated in the sterile world of the lab ? Think about it. There are many examples of phenomena in the natural world which cannot be lab replicated. I'll give you one example; the European eel's (Anguilla anguilla ) reproductive cycle has never even been fully observed and has certainly never been replicated in a lab but eels still stubbornly exist.This is because eel reproduction need a very precise set of parameters met in order to take place e.g. specific location (Sargasso sea), correct water pressure, temperature etc. Mediums also say that physical mediumship also requires a very precise set of circumstances (e.g. a correct mix of sitters' energy) to occur and circles may sit for months even years with nothing happening.Who would fund research over those time scales in a lab ? This is why field studies such as Scole are necessary.

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #44 - Dec 12th, 2011 at 3:17pm
 
I see the old "if it's not done in a laboratory then it's not scientific" argument has been brought up.

I agree with heis. If you want to go even further then, when they test nuclear weapons they certainly are not tested in a lab. Imagine if they were. "how did the test go?" "Well, the lab was here but now it has disappeared along with the scientists and any data which could be taken as evidence"

That argument is most certainly a joke  Wink.

And yes I am taking the piss here.

One thing I have not mentioned is that I find physical mediumship the most far fetched out of all afterlife evidence, but on the other hand as I was not at scole and I have never been to a seance then I feel I can't really say whether  it's real or not.

As I mentioned in my last post, if it's fraudulent then the evidence of fraud should be obvious although scole has been and gone so it's nigh on impossible to find evidence of fraud from that. However David Thompson and also the couple who were behind the scole experiments are still at it. So why are they able to do this if it's fraud?

I'm not expecting an answer to this but for me this question needs to be answered with damning evidence for fraud and for the people in question to be prosecuted for me to say that's it's all fake. If it can't then as far as I'm concerned it's open to debate and can't be swept under the carpet so easily.

Matthew, thanks for the recommendation I haven't had the time as of yet to read it but I will and will post again with my thoughts on it.

Andy
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #45 - Dec 12th, 2011 at 4:00pm
 
<<However David Thompson and also the couple who were behind the scole experiments are still at it. So why are they able to do this if it's fraud?>>

Well, Sylvia Browne is still at it........ Smiley

Seriously, if anyone has a chance to see Anderson Cooper show today at 4pm EST, he's having John Edward on, who supposedly is going to attempt to contact Anderson's deceased parents. 

Maybe it will be available via utube later on.

From my own experiences, genuine afterlife contact does not occur from pre-arranged attempts.  Instead, such contact seems to follow its own protocol and not from contrived experiments.

Now, if we could somehow figure out what that protocol is we'd really be on to something!

R
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #46 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 1:04am
 
rondele wrote on Dec 12th, 2011 at 4:00pm:
From my own experiences, genuine afterlife contact does not occur from pre-arranged attempts.  Instead, such contact seems to follow its own protocol and not from contrived experiments.

Now, if we could somehow figure out what that protocol is we'd really be on to something!

R

Yes, exactly.  From what I've been able to ascertain the protocol is dependent upon the need of individuals or groups of individuals as well as if there is a determined potential that the contact would be beneficial for spiritual growth for those individuals.

K
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #47 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 11:39am
 
Hi Kathy-

In my case the contact (more accurately the intervention) came at the precise moment I was in maximum danger as a child and it no doubt saved my life.

At the time I didn't know I was in danger and therefore did not call upon any kind of help.  It came of its own accord.  I'll never forget it.

Thing is, such intervention must still follow a protocol other than just the fact that I was in need.  Untold numbers of other people who have also faced danger are not rescued and end up dead.

Re. the potential for spiritual growth, I suppose that would be true in my case but there's no way to conclude that others who were not saved lacked that same potential.

So yeah, I think whatever protocol there is, must have more to it than that.

Sometimes I even think that if we all have guardian angels, maybe some of them are more adept than others in doing their job! 

It's like Don's story about a man who was standing in line to buy a plane ticket and he suddenly had an overwhelming conviction that the plane was going to crash and that he should not get on board.

So he left without getting the ticket.  And the plane crashed......

Begging these questions: Was he somehow more worthy of saving than all the others?  Or were his own "receptors" more in tune with a danger signal that maybe was sent to all passengers?  Or was his guardian angel a bit more effective than the angels of the others?

For me it's just one of those mysteries that I don't think we'll really figure out at least in this lifetime.

R

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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #48 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 11:29pm
 
Matthew,

Here again are the 4 issues that make me skeptical about genuine contact through most mental mediumship:

(1) The cases in which deceased people seem to communcate in an authetic style with lots of paranornal information are best explained by the medium's discernment of this information through the Collective Unconscious, which preserves all our thoughts and memories, quite apart from whether a discarnate mind is in contact with us.  If the contacts were genuine, then I would expect the medium to elicit convincing answers to questions like these:
(a) What have you [the deceased] been doing since our last channeling session?  Such questions never seem to get answered, if they are asked at all.  The mediums are not creative enough to spontaneously produce a satisfactory answer to such a question. Genuine contact could produce such an answer. 

(b) Or what about a question like this?  Gordon, when you were in the 7th grade, you had a crush on a girl at school and used to resent it when I teased you about her.  What was her name?  Such follow-up questions never seem to get answered correctly. 

(2) In the Gordon Davis case, the sitter mistakenly believed that his old friend Gordon Davis was dead, when in fact he was alive.  The medium was somehow able to exploit the sitter's false belief to tap the memory information via ESP, nurtured by faith.  This information was then issued in the false form of a contact with Gordon Davis, a contact he later denied. 

(3) Either that or a spirit impersonator tapped the information from the memories of the living. 

(4) The psychologists who duped mediums into a paranormal recreation of a fictional character were clearly having their memories paranormally read by the mediums.  So the burden of proof rests with those who postulate genuine contact with the deceased persons instead.
___________________
Rondele and Kathy, my e-mail is not working.  So I'd love to communicate with you both by PMs on this site.  Did I share with you both my heroic adventures in Costa Rica?!
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #49 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 11:53pm
 
Related to what Don wrote, once you've communicated with spirit beings a lot doing so is as obvious and certain as communicating with people. Are tests required in order to know if one actually communicates with people?

An important factor to consider is that when you communicate with a spirit you can often sense that being's presence. I don't mean an electrical current. I mean the feeling you get.

It is possible to have enough clarity of mind to know whether you actually communicate with spirits.

Since I can communicate with spirits I figure there are mediums who can do the same. This doesn't mean they are all genuine. Some might be frauds and some might be misled by devious spirits.

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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #50 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 12:19am
 
R

I agree those are good questions and as you say we most likely are unable, maybe even incapable of discovering all the answers.  Perhaps that's intended.  More and more I seem to feel the only thing that is certain is uncertainty.  lol Smiley

Don,

I'm still waiting to hear all of your jungle tales  Shocked unless you wrote to me on the other site that I haven't checked for quite a while.  You can pm me here if you like.

K
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #51 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 5:37am
 
Don-

1) The cases in which deceased people seem to communcate in an authetic style with lots of paranornal information are best explained by the medium's discernment of this information through the Collective Unconscious, which preserves all our thoughts and memories,

Firstly, from a mainstream scientific perspective such a conjectured collective unconscious is just as unproven as  living comunicating spirits so from that perspective does'nt offer a better explanation. The 'super-psi' as a catch-all explanation is a problem for the living spirit hypothesis but mediums report that retrieving 'dead' information (which happens in psychometry for example)and communicating with a living spirit 'feel' markedly different.Work is ongoing at the Windbridge Institute looking at precisely this issue.

'(a) What have you [the deceased] been doing since our last channeling session?  Such questions never seem to get answered, if they are asked at all.  The mediums are not creative enough to spontaneously produce a satisfactory answer to such a question. Genuine contact could produce such an answer.'

But if time does'nt exist in that realm or at least is experienced very differently from us would that question even make any sense ?!

'Or what about a question like this?  Gordon, when you were in the 7th grade, you had a crush on a girl at school and used to resent it when I teased you about her.  What was her name?  Such follow-up questions never seem to get answered correctly'.

Such evidential information is indeed that which helps determine if genuine contact has been made. With the best contacts such information is a feature - see Gordon Smith's readings.

'3) Either that or a spirit impersonator tapped the information from the memories of the living'.


But if an spirit impersonator can do it why not a deceased loving spouse or parent ?!

Regarding your second and fourth points they do seem to complicate matters and discourage taking everything on face value. But, in the vast majority of cases a) The contacted spiriit is definately deceased b) No personality is artificially constructed. Because of this I don't feel we are entitled to extrapolate exceptional frauds as being the explanation of all cases of purported mediumship. Its that discernment word again !



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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #52 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 2:24pm
 
Rondele,

Thanks for the heads up about medium John Edwards' appearance on Anderson Cooper's show.  Edwards demonstrated paranormal abilities, but confirmed my past preconception of his gift, namely he gains his information by ESP, gleaning information from the minds of living relatives.   His "hemming an hawing" and ultimate revisionism about "Sam" made this particularly apparent to me.  Why couldn't a deceased family member just tell Edwards that the "Sam" identified was a dead pet snake?  Edwards sees pictures; so why not a picture of a snake? 

I was amazed that Edwards revealed the fact that Anderson's Mom knew Marilyn Monroe.  [How could she have kept that fact from Anderson?]  But that strikes me as ESP, not genuine contact with Anderson's father.  In the final analysis, the deafening silence of obvious details that Edwards might have revealed, but did not make me skeptical. 

heisenberg,

Given Swedenberg's discoveries of the sense in which the deceased live apart from time, I would expect entitites channeled by mediums to be able to answer the question, "What have you been doing since our last channeling session?"  Or at least, I'd expect the entities to explain why they can't answer that question. 

Granted that the Collective Unconscious is itself a theoretical construct, I think Jung has made it a plausible construct and I consider it a better source of a medium's paranormal material than genuiine contact with the professed discarnate spirit. 
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #53 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 3:49pm
 
Don-

I would have been much more impressed if there was a screen between Edward and Anderson's mom.  Non-verbal cues absolutely need to be ruled out, and she was giving lots of them.  Also the person being read should not be allowed to say anything.

However, it seemed more convincing when Edward was reading for Anderson and he suddenly began giving information that related directly to the two stagehands who were operating the cameras and lights.  What he said certainly seemed impressive.

On the other hand, even tho the stagehands swore that they had not spoken beforehand to Edward, we must totally rule out the possibility...however remote....that someone on Edward's staff had previously researched the stagehands.  And is it totally impossible that he could have discovered Anderson's mom's connection to Marilyn Monroe prior to the reading?

Remember the old saying- extraordinary claims require extraordinary verification.

Another point- if Edward can get in touch with deceased folks, including his own mom, how come we never hear substantive information?
It's fine to talk about the chocolate cake dear departed Aunt Gladys loved while she was alive, but Edward never tells us the things we'd love to know, i.e. what do they actually DO in the afterlife?  What is the environment like?  How do they spend their time?  Is there reincarnation?  Do they sleep?  Eat?  Have sex? And on and on.  I for one have never heard a medium discuss those things in depth.  How come?

I realize there are other books that mention these sorts of questions, but I've never heard a medium go into detail about them.

Btw your Leonard story, to me, represents the most convincing case of afterlife survival I've ever read.  Too bad we don't have 2nd party corroboration.

R
ps- I think you did send something about your trip, but pls re-send.  Been a while.

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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #54 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 4:58pm
 
I understand that everyone has their own ideas about whether purported medium contact is genuine and that's fine.But I can imagine a scenario where the following conditions are met:

1. The medium provides highly evidential information about the deceased which the sitter both can confirm instantly but also information which the sitter has to confirm at a later date because they don't know the relevent facts e.g uncle Bert had a secret love child (later cofirmed correct)(negating simple mind reading).
2. The messages are obviously loving and in the character of the deceased (negating imposters).
3.The messages provide comfort and allow the bereaved to move on in their life knowing the deceased is doing fine. (suggesting the reading is a positive thing).
4.The medium senses the contact as a 'living' presence (negating collective unconscious theory).

I agree that a broad interpretation of 'super-psi' could probably account for much of the above but such a wide interpretation is practically indistinguishable from survival in my view.For my money genuine contact is as good an explanation as any for the above situation.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #55 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 6:52pm
 
When a medium seems to channel a loved one and the loved one not only communicates paranormal information that s/he should not know, but also uses the unique figures of speech of the real deceased person, then one would expect this to be a genuine case.  But the Gordon Davis case makes even this unlikely because the personality channeled satisfied all these conditions in a convincing way; yet Gordon Davis had not died after all and knew nothing about the channeling sessions.  So the burden of proof rests with those who want to believe that the satisfaction of these conditions should be construed as genuine contact.  Remember, the sitter (Dr. Samuel Soal) had been wrongly informed earlier that Gordon Davis had been killed.  So why isn't channeling discredited in this way more often?  Answer: How often are you told that a friend has died, when in fact this is false? The beilef factor facilitated the illusion of contact and ESP from Sam Soal's mind is the best explanation for how the illusion of contact was created.  The Gordon Davis entity was emphatic that he was now dead and as "only concerned about my wife and kiddie now."

So when psychologists then duped mediums by asking them to contact a fictional character that  they invented and were focusing intently on during the channleing session, ESP from the psychologist's mind is the obvious interpretation.  To me, these refutations make genuine contact very unlikely, even in cases where the paranormal information was unknown to the sitter.  ESP from a living mind (e. g. a distant friend or relative) seems more plausible, given these contrary studies. The feeling of psychological certainty is irrelevant and should not be taken seriuosly, without evidence.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #56 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 7:29pm
 
What is clarion clear and certain to me is that second hand information, either from a mental medium or an illusionist, is not the best way to obtain knowledge of the afterlife.

Bruce and TMI have the right idea about it - practice self mastery, and explore on your own.  Bruce has documented his experiences, including that point where he found verification that for him was beyond any doubt. 

If you accept a medium's reading at face value, it may initially be quite comforting.  But keep in mind, you are not truly making direct contact with your own exploration. 

The notion of ESP is always amusing to me, as it is a term coined by mystic Frederick Meyers, and has been soundly discredited by the scientific community (references available if requested).  At best, Western science thinks that experiments about ESP may show some statistically relevant data that do not clearly validate ESP as its own phenomenon but make one wonder.  Wow.  Now, if we invoke ESP as the source of the data, how exactly does that work?  Western science does not recognize that there even is a "mind" to read.  The current theories are that our subjective conscious experiences are illusory freakish accidents of nature, caused by neurochemical synaptic firings. 

If one can truly prove that there is a plane of mental existence to communicate with, then we already have proven the extraordinary premise that we are MORE than our physical bodies.  Admittedly, this doesn't prove the "survival" hypothesis of an afterlife.  My strong intuitive feeling is that the plane of "mind" is our  truest state of being, and that encasing ourself in a physical world is one phase of the experience. 

I have not been interested in meeting with a medium myself, as I feel it is a cop out to one's own development of abilities.  I also, through recent research, have come to believe that there are a large number of fraudulent physical mediums (the free online book The Psychic Mafia is a must read as is the University of Pennsylvania's study on Mediums - also available for free which I discussed earlier in this thread), and in some ways, I feel that if the afterlife could be verified just through mediums, it would have happened a long time ago.

I don't understand the lack of time in the after-death experience.  Swedenborg said that spirits don't measure time, but look at themselves as moving from one state of being to another.  Fascinating, and deep.  I can't imagine how ES understood all that in the 1700s, but he had a most brilliant mind.....

Swedenborg also mentioned that for  a discarnate person, they do lose track of earthly things after a time - if there are no corresponding things in the heavenly plane.  Common experience of eating food or using the bathroom become, I'm quite sure alien to the deceased.  The best chance of information that Don is requesting is with the recently deceased, who have not yet forgotten some common earthly facts. 

I would be surprised if after we pass on we would still give out social security numbers and the like.  I know it may have happened, but it just strikes me as counter intuitive once we've passed.

People forget things from their earthly lives.  Swedenborg recalls meeting a deceased human who told him that he was quite the scholar when alive, and fluent in several ancient languages.  Yet because his love was based on ego, and not love, the knowledge he had amassed was not lasting, and sounded more like gibberish.  This supported Swedenborg's theory that those who act out of love move closer to God and bliss, while those who act out self love do not.

But to get back to mediums - to each his own.  If some out there on this forum are comforted by what they hear, so be it.  Its not for me.


Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #57 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 10:17pm
 
Matthew,

I don't even understand what you mean by denying the existece of extrasensory perception or perception gained apart from our 5 senses.  Are you saying that what appears to be such is in fact accurate perception gained in some way either through the 5 senses or gained through spirit contact?  What about biologist Rupert Sheldrake's experiments demonstrating that learned behavior of animals increases the ease with which that aame skill is learned by members of the same species in another continent where no direct contact with that study animals has occurred?  Or what about research demonstrating the ability to discern when others are staring at you, when the starers are unseen behind a wall? 
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #58 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 1:29am
 
Don,

I suppose I am saying that ESP and Psi are simply examples of communication on a spiritual or mental plane, rather than events identifiable in the physical world.  That perception itself occurs independent of the physical brain on a spiritual/mental plane.  The notion that we perceive in a localized manner is simply wrong.

I should mention that I think Sheldrake is brilliant, but his theories have not been embraced or accepted by most western scientists.  Clasically trained scientists do not universally accept Sheldrake's example or the existence of Psi.  If you go through the journals, what is found at best is a small statistically significant difference in Psi from experiments that are above that would be expected from random chance.   This happened with Princeton's P.E.A.R. lab data, but when I investigated ESP tests done many years ago, I found that tests published on precognitive and other psi abilities were also, when taken together in a meta-analysis demonstrative of a small significant difference compared with that which was expected by random chance (a significant but small P value ). 

What this means is that classically trained scientists at major universities, believe there is something unexplained about "ESP," but are not willing yet to codify the effects as a definite scientific fact.  Some skeptics like Blackmore wrote that they spent decades trying to validate the existence of ESP or Psi phenomena, and in the end, she was unable to do so using classical scientific technique in any reproducible way.  Parapsychologists are still considered these days to be on the fringe of "true" research, and somewhat ostracized from the halls of academia in many universities.

Sheldrake's studies have been widely critiqued and independent scientists have disputed his conclusions in the scientific literature about the learning of species, and his experimentation on being stared at.  That being said, his data remain......controversial.....termed "unfalsifiable" due to the nature of his experiments and his theory being more of a statement than a proof.

I, on the other hand believe that the examples you raised suggest a deeper spiritual experience at work.  If an entire species of birds "learns" a certain behaviour after only a few birds learn it thousands of miles away - it is unlikely that this learning took place on the physical plane of existence or can be explained by pre-programming of DNA.  So, what other planes are there?  If the education of these birds took place on a mental or spiritual plane, then we are talking of a plane independent of the physical body and world.

This is the main reason why I never let Psi or ESP phenomenon discredit the existence of an afterlife - for the reason that Psi and ESP are not accepted as scientific fact, and not explainable in any way we know in the physical world.  As I said before, its not that ESP validates an afterlife, but that if real, ESP proves that there is more to us than a physical being.  If we are more than our physical bodies, then we are one step closer to realizing that our bodies are not primary, but our consciousness and that of God is primary (our bodies secondary).

Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #59 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 6:01am
 
The Gordon Davis case if true, ( Dr. Samuel Soal is considered an example of a fraudulent researcher by skeptics such as Paul Kurtz - CSIcop founder) seems to lend support to Bruce's idea that split-off 'aspects of self' can be formed under trauma. In Bruce's conception great war events may have caused an aspect of Gordon Davis to become split-off unconsciously from his whole self and be in need of retrieval (reintegration) at a later date.Great concern for one's wife and children welfare in a battle situation is not uncommon. We can speculate that it was this non-physical split-off aspect which the medium Blanche Cooper was in contact with.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #60 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 2:38pm
 
Speaking only from my experience and understanding, I would say most likely any medium at any given time is not in contact with a person's deceased loved one even though genuine contact of a recently deceased person may be entirely possible, just unlikely.  Any information gleaned most likely comes from what Don calls ESP and/or what I think of as being in contact with memory held within the larger consciousness system... a database of past history and/or future probabilities of someone and/or an event.  In my opinion thought is non-physical and actually arises from feeling.  It's not a product of the brain, instead it is a stream of consciousness or information that is in a sense "fed" to us and filtered through the brain to give us the impression of being an individual consciousness separated from the whole of consciousness.  There is great purpose in this, but that's for another thread.

I think the biggest problem anyone faces in trying to gather scientific evidence to show the existence of an afterlife is that very few of us, if any, truly understands what non-physical realities are like.  The only thing we know is the physics of the world we live in, the laws this reality is governed by.  We tend to project our ideas onto what a non-physical reality is like because that's all we know and we thereby create belief systems.  However, for those that have been able to explore the non-physical realities after a while you realize that it is next to impossible to describe these without interjecting physical "type" physics where none actually exists.  It is much, much easier to describe what a non-physical reality is not like, rather than describe what it is like.

Asking questions like "What have you been doing since your death six months ago." is incompatible to the person/individualized consciousness that was known to exist previous to their physical death. That person, that individualized consciousness no longer exists as those in the physical world once knew them.  They have changed and moved on to a different reality with different laws that govern their being.  They are not the same as they were, therefore those types of questions are irrelevant.  Yet, the life they lived in this world, the interactions they had, the events that occurred remain in the memory/database of the consciousness system.  After our death the life we lived becomes more like a dream we had.  Much of it fades from conscious memory because we've changed and moved on to a completely different governing process.  If that change doesn't occur then that person is probably stuck and in need of retrieval.

It is only our needy ego and the fear behind it that drives us to believe in "genuine contact" from a medium/physic or something outside of our self. If we truly want to know, not simply believe, then the only way to know is to begin by exploring our own inner being, our own consciousness, which originates from the spiritual/non-physical in which we are never separated from.  Meditation and the hypnagogic, the state between sleep and wakefulness are the best ways I know of and there are many modalities to get there as Matthew mentioned, such as Bruce's methods, TMI, as well as others.  Contact from the non-physical can and does take place in many ways.  Being open, yet skeptical will help with the discernment process.  Perhaps the most difficult to remember is to not impose the laws of this world onto that which is not this world.

Kathy



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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #61 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 5:16pm
 
Kathy, you make an important point: it is easier to describe what the afterlife is NOT like than to describe the way it actually is.  But I think it is very useful to identify as many questions as possible that presume an earthly model and therefore cannot be answered in terms of that model.  If 2 mediums cannot channel a conversation between a deceased mother and father, that may mean that channeling reads discarnate minds without the deceased person's awareness that this is happening.  That might help to explain why such communications lack the free-flowing character that physical conversations would display.  Still, I would hope that a genuine medium might channel helpful explanations of why some of my questions are inappropirate and in need of reformulation. 

I' m  struck by memory problems of the deceased as reported by both Robert Bruce and Swedenborg.  In an OBE state, RB visits an apparent Rehab/ Hospital center on the border of the next life.  He says that the medical stiaff (receptionists, nurses, doctors)  seem to be thought forms rather than ensouled spirits because meaningful diialogue with them is so difficult and truncated.  Yet he is able to have wonderful conversations with newly arrived friends.  But when the loved ones of these friends "descend" to visit, RB finds them incapable of remembering in any detail their lives in their current spirit plane!  Swedenborg, of course, describes in detail how earth memories become dormant to faciilitate postmortem progress.  These memories also fade due to a lack of adequate analogies to nonphysical life.  Assuming these memory problems, we must ask what type of questions can be fruitfully explored and why other questions get us nowhere.  Swedenborg does insist that earth memories are never lost, just dormant, and can be reactivated at divine disecretion.  Is God willing to lift the veil on "His" hidden principles for reactivating dormant memories?  Does God want us to discover more of the nature of the afterlife?  Is this quest like science in the sense that God allows human resolve and ingenuity to experience breakthroughs about postmortem reality only when we are brillliant nough to create the requisite theoretical fouindation?   Is it a copout to despair and clliam, "There must just be many things we are not meant to know?"  Are limitations in postmortem knowledge self-imposed? 

The promising, if flawed, experiments of people like Rupert Sheldrake suggest that we simply be lacking an Isaac Newton or Einstein of astral exploration.  Perhaps we just need a new and  improved Swedenborg for our time.   
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #62 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 7:39pm
 
Don-

One essential point that ES stressed: the afterlife is full of deception.  He cautioned other potential explorers to be very careful (in fact I think he advised against) in exploring the afterlife for this reason.

As an aside, this also raises concerns about the messages from mediums, not to mention fooling around with the ouija board.

Do you recall if ES acknowledged whether any information he himself obtained might very well have been compromised from deceptive sources?

R



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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #63 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 8:49pm
 
<<There is great purpose in this, but that's for another thread.>>

Kathy-

I trust you will start that thread!

R
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #64 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 8:50pm
 
Rondele,

Remember, that ES learns by direct experience that when discarnate humans merge with our spirits, the untrained cannot recognize this, and the memories of the merging spirit are experienced as if they are one's own memories from a prior lifetime.  ES's experiences with negative discarnate humans prompt him to offer this warning:

"When spirits begin to speak, care should be taken not to believe them; for nearly everything they say is made up by them...They love to pretend, and if a man listens and believes, they become insistent, and in various ways deceive and seduce."

I gleaned this quote from the internet site, which quoted from ES's "Miscellaneous Theological Works."  I'll try to track down more relevant quotes.
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #65 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 9:31pm
 
Don-

Yes, which is why I am suspicious of virtually all channeled material.

No matter how high sounding it might seem, with expressions of love and compassion, etc etc, if you are observant, you'll find an agenda folded into the material.

R
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #66 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 6:18am
 
Hi,

I know very little about Swedenborg, can anyone recommend a good starting point book about/by him ? I think I need to know more about this man whose work seems so influential.

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #67 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 7:39am
 
Don has an excellent old thread on the board on Swedenborg which goes into detail about his life, verifications and explanations. 

There is a free translation of his work on Heaven and Hell here:  http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/hh/index.htm

ES was a most remarkable man, with a keen mind, well ahead of his time.  Prior his becoming a mystic, his scientific accomplishments and writings were impressive. 

I would start with Don's thread here.


Matthew
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #68 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 2:21pm
 
Don, yes I do think a genuine medium/psychic is either as you mention reading discarnate minds without the deceased person's awareness, or could be connecting to memory held within a database.  Could also be interacting with a helpful guide, a playful and/or deceitful spirit or could be actually connecting with the deceased person though I think this to be the least likely.  My point in regards to the questions we ask was that a deceased loved one that has moved on most likely can no longer identify with the meaning of such questions and therefore would become confused, unable to answer.  Same for those "descending" to a different plane/reality as you mentioned with RB's comments. 

There are numerous, even countless planes or realities and as a being moves within these that being's conscious reality as well as its "beingness" changes because the governing physics of each reality can be quite different.  Existing in another reality is different than what we would ordinarily think.  For example, if here on earth we move to a different country we may be living in a different culture that is unfamiliar to us, yet we are still existing within the same physics/laws of the earth reality.  We remember, perhaps even long for home, our friends and loved ones.  We don't forget because the earth plane/reality is where our consciousness exists. It's what we know, what we identify with.  A being existing on one plane/reality consciously exists within that world and that is what is known to that being.  When no longer existing within that reality, under that particular set of governing rules/laws that being has for lack of a better way to explain, become deceased in that reality and is no longer subject to it... again memory of it fades and the being progresses to perhaps exist consciously within another different reality.

I think God allows the consciousness system as well as all individualized consciousness to be as they will be.  In other words, I don't think it is God whom restricts or restrains us.  I think the laws/rules/constraints of realities/planes of existence are simply one of the aspects in the process of consciousness evolution and yes, perhaps in that we are a part of this system these limitations could be in a sense self-imposed. Hopefully we are all evolving, growing spiritually toward more awareness and understanding.  Though I don't think it is possible to know and completely understand everything, it may be a copout as you say to simply accept the position that we are not meant to know certain things.  Isn't it our desire to know and understand that fuels us toward betterment?  Well, I guess that depends upon our intent, but I get what you're saying.

I don't want to get off on a tangent here, but I find it really annoying when someone says... it's God's will.  Granted believing and accepting a situation occurs by believing something is meant to be, however, it also lays responsibility on God rather than taking responsibility for oneself and one's own participation in the situation.  More and more I think God allows us to be as we will be.  We have the inherent ability to choose, so why would God restrict that in any way?

Well Don, if you ever find a new and improved ES, please do let me know! Smiley

Kathy
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #69 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 2:23pm
 
Rondele,

Sure I'll think about starting that thread.  I have a project starting the middle of January that will take me 3 or 4 weeks to complete, but I'll see how my time goes.

K
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #70 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 3:08pm
 
Thanks Mathew I'll try to get up to speed on Swedenborg.

D
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #71 - Dec 17th, 2011 at 3:55pm
 
Berserk2 wrote on Dec 15th, 2011 at 8:50pm:
Rondele,

Remember, that ES learns by direct experience that when discarnate humans merge with our spirits, the untrained cannot recognize this, and the memories of the merging spirit are experienced as if they are one's own memories from a prior lifetime.  ES's experiences with negative discarnate humans prompt him to offer this warning:

"When spirits begin to speak, care should be taken not to believe them; for nearly everything they say is made up by them...They love to pretend, and if a man listens and believes, they become insistent, and in various ways deceive and seduce."

I gleaned this quote from the internet site, which quoted from ES's "Miscellaneous Theological Works."  I'll try to track down more relevant quotes. 


Don- From pg 73 of Van Dusen's book: "Spiritualists claim to contact the spiritual world.  Even supposing that some do, it appears they are contacting only the lowest level of the worlds Swedenborg described-and this lowest level can be quite deceptive, as Swedenborg was to make clear."

So mediums like John Edward may be absolutely correct when he tells someone that the deceased Aunt Gladys reports that her chocolate cake was her favorite dessert.....the real question, however, is whether it is really Aunt Gladys who is telling him that!

R
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #72 - Dec 17th, 2011 at 4:15pm
 
Regarding whether some mediums contact the deceased loved ones of the people they try to help, I figure the below possibilities exists. One possibility doesn't become invalid simply because another exists.

1. Some mediums are frauds.

2. Some mediums receive information telepathicially from the people they try to help.

3. Some mediums receive information from the place where memories reside, as suggested by Lights of Love.

4. Some mediums receive information from their higher selves, or the higher selves of the people they  try to help, or another higher level of being, or some combination.

5. Some mediums receive information from the deceased people they say they receive it from.

6. Some mediums do some combination of 2 through 5.

7. Some mediums receive information from deceptive spirits.

Perhaps it is inaccurate to say that only one of the above is true because of what a few sample cases have shown.

It is also important to consider after death communication cases as shown on the below links. If these people can make contact with actual deceased loved ones, then perhaps some mediums can also do so.

http://www.adcrf.org/

http://www.after-death.com/ 
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Re: Excellent documentary on the Scole experiments.
Reply #73 - Feb 18th, 2012 at 6:18am
 
Last night I attended a lecture by Dr Rupert Sheldrake, the noted biologist, on his new book 'The Science Delusion' (which is excellent by the way). After the talk I was able to have a quick chat with him. I knew that he had attended a Scole session back in the 1990s and so I asked him what his experience was. His response was that he had seen 'many wonderful things' during the session (including materialised hands) and that he had found no evidence of fraudulent behaviour. This is obviously not conclusive 'proof' but it is at least interesting eye witness testimony.

D
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