Copyrighted Logo

css menu by Css3Menu.com


 

Bruce's 5th book, a Home Study Course, is now available.
Books & Tapes by Bruce Moen
    Bruce's Blog now at http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/blog....

  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
What is God? (Read 17409 times)
Alan McDougall
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male
What is God?
Aug 27th, 2008 at 6:08am
 
I posted this topic here as relions beleive they know the answer


This is a conundrum/paradox and enigma I have battled with for many years.

Is the entity we refer to as “God” a Supreme Being separate from the rest of existence? In other words is “God” a product of the eternal Energies that pervaded Existence some how evolving out of this primordial maelstrom of raging energy/

Is “God” just a Supreme Being sitting in glory on a Christian throne that is able to manipulate the universe and all existence to his will?

Is “God” a non –energetic something called Spirit which existed before what we call the universe came into being,

If “God” is truly separate from matter and energy and just used it like we use bricks and motor to build our homes, did he do the same by using his spirit (whatever that is) and formed the universe with these components at hand.

Or does “God” equate to Existence. In other words the whole of Existence is “God” and sentient.

The question begs if “God” is not energy and matter where did it come from.

Regardless of any answer we give the question of infinite regression will always rear its head.

I say that given I exist, Existence is just something in an ever changing moment. No beginning, no end beyond human comprehension

Regards

Alan
Back to top
 

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall
WWW <a href= <a href=  
IP Logged
 
Member unknown
Full Member
***
Offline


Gone for an undetermined
time

Posts: 132
Re: What is God?
Reply #1 - Aug 27th, 2008 at 12:37pm
 
Alan,

Hello. Thank you for your replies on my previous posts.

I would like to share with you and the others some personal views I have on God.

First of all, I do not see God as a Supreme Being. If he thought of himself as Supreme, I think he would be arrogant.

I believe God is the most evolved soul existing in the entire universe. I think he masters PUL, knowledge and feeling, beyond our wildest imagination.

I believe he is made basically out of the same energy as we are, but, if we could know ourselves as well as we should and be 100% alined with our natural way of Being, and keep this state stable, I think we'ld be a lot closer to God.

I think God is the Soul that has found the best way to be and that he is still learning with us, through us, to be even better at what he is. I believe he does not need to incarnate in a (earth)life or get involved in somebody else's life to experience and learn.

I believe God has found a way so that he does not need the duality of earth-life system to be more loving, to give more PUL.

I think we have everything to learn from him, but I think we should realize that there is a fundamental difference between: knowing through knowledge and wisdom AND knowing through experience of self.

God could certainly give us all knowledge, if we chose to, BUT to understand that knowledge, we still need to experience "these feelings" ourselves. I believe that this is the entire goal of the earth-life system.

Through experience, we learn what works on this planet (which is qualified as good) and what does not work (which is qualified as evil). Through experience, we learn to be more loving or how to avoid to be less loving.

I believe God thought of this system, and from these thoughts life evolved to what we now know as earth-life. Then we selected a life we were curious to experience.

This is only my personal opinion, of course.

I hope it helps you, somehow.

Much love,

Sonia
Back to top
 

Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you. &&Maori Proverb&&&& &&
 
IP Logged
 
blink
Ex Member


Re: What is God?
Reply #2 - Aug 27th, 2008 at 3:57pm
 
My dear Alan, I believe that God is the One/Place in which each of us puts our fears to rest. There is no Other.

Sometimes, for me, the simplest things are the most difficult to understand. As a human being, we want this or that. Once we have this or that, we imagine that we want 1/2 dozen of this, or maybe a dozen more of that.

If we stay in the center there is no need for anything at all. God simply Is, as we Are.

As you say: "I say that given I exist, Existence is just something in an ever changing moment. No beginning, no end beyond human comprehension"

love, blink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
recoverer
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 5027
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #3 - Aug 27th, 2008 at 4:21pm
 
Alan:

I agree with a lot of what Sonia wrote. Here's a few of my own words.

Existence started out with one being, call this being God if you like.  This being was made up of a mixture of awareness, the ability to learn and think, and the energy with which it creates. Eventually--which probably didn't take a long time because this being was infinite in nature and time didn't exist--this being figured out how to use its energy to create many other beings. Since nothing but this being existed, it used its own being to create everything including all of us. Therefore, we are all extensions of this one being.

Eventually we find our way back to God and bring our lessons and uniqueness with us. God never considers us to be seperate from him. Just different parts of himself playing various roles. Yet he respects the independence each of us have, because each of us experiences the consequences of our choices.  At a basic level we are never seperate from God and each other.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2008 at 7:26pm by recoverer »  
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #4 - Aug 27th, 2008 at 5:43pm
 
[Alan:] Is the entity we refer to as “God” a Supreme Being separate from the rest of existence? In other words is “God” a product of the eternal Energies that pervaded Existence some how evolving out of this primordial maelstrom of raging energy/
_______________________________________________________
Strictly speaking, God does not "exist."  The biblical God is not one being (a Supreme Being) among countless other beings; rather, God is the ground of all being and "Yahweh" means "the One who causes to be."    In this sense, God is the only meaningful answer to the question, "Why is there something rather than nothing all all?"

[Alan:] Is “God” just a Supreme Being sitting in glory on a Christian throne that is able to manipulate the universe and all existence to his will?
_________________________________________________________
This question overlooks the biblical teaching that we must think of God poetically.  Taken literally, divine throne imagery contradicts the standard biblical teaching that God is omnipresent, and hence, cannot be localized on a throne.  For example, the prophet Isaiah has a vision of God sitting on a throne (6:1-6), and yet, the Bible repeatedly warns us that no one has really ever seen God.  This contradiction vanishes once the symbolic nature of Isaiah's vision is recognized.  Simlarly, visions of angels are at times equated with visions of God.  But again, the angel is merely being treated as God's representative who conveys God's presence and message.    

[Alan:] If “God” is truly separate from matter and energy and just used it like we use bricks and mortar to build our homes, did he do the same by using his spirit (whatever that is) and formed the universe with these components at hand?  Or does “God” equate to Existence? In other words the whole of Existence is “God” and sentient.
__________________________________________

Now you are inviting a critique of the flawed standard New Age perspective that God is "All That Is."  At one level, this perspective is meaningless.  That is, if God is the Source is everything, then by definition everything is in a sense a part of God.  At a deeper level, the New Age view is false because it overlooks the possibility that an omnipotent God can create sentient beings and universes that can in important ways operate independently of God's micro-management. The realm of "Not God" designates all manifestations of chaos, randomness, and free will that God does not control.  To some extent, we are all "victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11)" because God does not control all the natural forces of chaos.  Because God does not control these systems, He is the ground of their being, but not their being itself!  An omnipotent God can create "Not God!"

This metaphysical outlook fits neatly with the view that God is also love.  But love is by nature relational and thus love is meaningless unless the object of love has a different identity from that of the lover. Robots are incapable of true love.  The biblical God is in process and broadens His horizons through that process.  Free manifestations of independent creativity and love are the very heart of the meaning of existence.

Don




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
spooky2
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2368
Re: What is God?
Reply #5 - Aug 27th, 2008 at 7:02pm
 
Hello again Don,
one little critic, you said:
"At a deeper level, the New Age view is false because it overlooks the possibility that an omnipotent God can create sentient beings and universes that can in important ways operate independently of God's micro-management."
This would only be so when there already had been a sort of independent matter which had not been created by God. If God had created really everything, than there simply would be no source of independence left. The thought that there is a creator who can create something, and then let it run on it's own is taken from our daily life, where nothing we create is entirely created by us. If it would (time, space, every particle and what not all), it wouldn't be independent of us as the creator; in fact, it seems as if in this case, creator and creation would be unseparable.

Spooky
Back to top
 

"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #6 - Aug 27th, 2008 at 9:24pm
 
Spooky,

My disagreement with you is based on 5 axionatic principles:

(1) Free will implies an ability to choose contrary to one's inclinations. Otherwise, choices are either random or coerced, but not free.

(2) Free will implies an ability to choose contrary to the will of a God of love, that is, to make unloving or even hateful choices.  Otherwise, our loving service is not self-caused and therefore lacks moral value.  
Free will is a necessary condition for a universe with moral value.

(3) You are assuming that matter and energy are entirely governed by laws of which God is aware and which God controls.  You overlook the possibility that an omnipotent God can inject an element of randomness or chaos into the action of particles and energy.  If so, then God by definition does not micro-manage them.  But, you protest, God transcends time and would foreknow the result of each random or chaotic interaction that is not governed by any laws.  This quibble overlooks the distinction between divine foreknowledge and predestination.  To foreknew is not to control.

(4) What it all boils down to is this.  There is no self-contradiction in the claim that an omnipotent God can create physical systems and minds that create outcomes that God foresees but does not control.  If I can make moral choices that are not predetermined by some X factor in my brain or mind, then by definition, there is dualism and God is not me, even though God is the ground of my being.  If God's foreknowlege always allows Him to detect some X factor in my mind that makes my choices predictable, then by definition that X factor deprives me of free will.  

(5) If God has not predistined choice X, then X is not made by God and God is not All That Is.  If God foreknows that I will choose X, and prevents me from making this choice, then God has deprived me of my free will.      

Don
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2008 at 3:14pm by Berserk2 »  
 
IP Logged
 
harvey
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 61
Re: What is God?
Reply #7 - Aug 28th, 2008 at 2:12am
 
Berserk2 wrote on Aug 27th, 2008 at 9:24pm:
Spooky,

My disagreement with you is based on 4 axionatic principles:

(1) Free will implies an ability to choose contrary to one's inclinations. Otherwise, choices are either random or coerced, but not free.

(2) Free will implies an ability to choose contrary to the will of a God of love, that is, to make unloving or even hateful choices.  Otherwise, our loving service is not self-caused and therefore lacks moral value.  
Free will is a necessary condition for a universe with moral value.

(3) You are assuming that matter and energy are entirely governed by laws of which God is aware and which God controls.  You overlook the possibility that an omnipotent God can inject an element of randomness or chaos into the action of particles and energy.  If so, then God by definition does not micro-manage them.  But, you protest, God transcends time and would foreknow the result of each random or chaotic interaction that is not governed by any laws.  This quibble overlooks the distinction between divine foreknowledge and predestination.  To foreknew is not to control.

(4) What it all boils down to is this.  There is no self-contradiction in the claim that an omnipotent God can create physical systems and minds that create outcomes that God foresees but does not control.  If I can make moral choices that are not predetermined by some X factor in my brain or mind, then by definition, there is dualism and God is not me, even though God is the ground of my being.  If God's foreknowlege always allows Him to detect some X factor in my mind that makes my choices predictable, then by definition that X factor deprives me of free will.  

(5) If God has not predistined choice X, then X is not made by God and God is not All That Is.  If God foreknows that I will choose X, and prevents me from making this choice, then God has deprived me of my free will.      

Don



A BIG WELCOME BACK DON!!....ULTRA!!!...To the rescue..PLEASE!!!Harv.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
spooky2
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2368
Re: What is God?
Reply #8 - Aug 28th, 2008 at 8:28pm
 
I see Don. The axioms you shared may be axiomatic when you assume a free will as you do, but when you don't do it this way, it aren't axioms anymore.

We've had that discussion already in the thread

Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1189351469/0

along with my recent remarks my point of view is clear I think. I'm the opinion the understanding of what God is is unnecessarily complicated by the assumptions you're making.

What I really like is, that God is not a being among other beings, but the ground of all being. I can agree with that.

Spooky
Back to top
 

"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
IP Logged
 
Petrus
Full Member
***
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #9 - Aug 29th, 2008 at 9:23am
 
Alan McDougall wrote on Aug 27th, 2008 at 6:08am:
The question begs if “God” is not energy and matter where did it come from.


Hey Alan,
My own interpretation is to view "God" as basically a co-ordinating principle, or energy if you like.

The way I'd describe it would be to point at all the trillions of people and various other life forms that exist, but to then say that I tend to view "God," as an entity which is able to take all of those disparate perspectives and opinions into account, and still formulate a consistent plan of action for attaining the wellbeing of all of them, relative to their specific context.

Putting it more simply, an analogy which people here might be able to visualise more easily would be the Borg Queen, from some of the later depictions of Star Trek.  The Queen was someone who took in all of the individual thoughts of the beings within the Borg Collective, and was still able to create a single, coherent plan from them on a course of action for the Collective to take, in terms of its' survival.

That's also where the definition of the dark and light duality comes in, in the sense that people complying with the above are said to be working with the light, and those trying to do the opposite, with the darkness.  Then however you also find out that both of those halves ultimately serve the whole.

I make no claim about whether the above is accurate in any objective sense, either.  It's basically an interpretation which I've found relevant as one individual.

The evidence seems to point to a scenario where what we refer to as "God" has the ability to give itself an entirely different appearance or cognitive interpretation for each individual, and yet maintain a consistent existence within, and over and above, all of them. 

Hence, your own answer to this question will be different from mine almost by definition, because of God's ability to manifest to us in a manner which is specific to our own situation and background.
Back to top
 

...&&eMule : Welcome to Aquarian society.
 
IP Logged
 
DocM
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2168
Re: What is God?
Reply #10 - Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:11am
 
I had a God thread going a month or two ago.  Further questions come up when you use the "ground of all being," idea (which I like as well).

The first obvious issue is if God is more like a principle or foundation of love and energy, where does the personal communication come from, and where do we fit in areas such as worship of God and the covenant between God and man found in the old and new testament?  Some on this site (OOBE dude comes to mind) have said that there is no need to worship God, for we are all God, and a unity, so it is beside the point.

For those who choose to worship God, or who speak of their own personal relationship with God, the idea that God is the foundation of our being, without being a superconsciousness that is loving and intelligent, doesn't sit well.  

I believe the answer lies in the middle.  For me, God is the foundation of both life and love.  Hence, all actions that move toward life and love come from him eventhough we may think we are initiating the actions by ourselves.  Is that something to be worshipped?  For me, absolutely.  Perhaps as something I'm a part of, and not as an other.  Don says that the duality is necessary to really express love - it implies an object of love; a lover and a lovee so to speak.  I'm not sure.  Sometimes love is a feeling or state of consciousness, without the duality...

Matthew
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
hawkeye
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 886
canada
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #11 - Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:52pm
 
You are God, I am God, Everything and nothing is God.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Old Dood
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 448
Lansing
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #12 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 10:15am
 
I have found this website and it's forums quite interesting myself.
Link: http://www.maya12-21-2012.com/spirituality.html#The_Results_of_Vibration

Maybe it will for others too.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Member unknown
Full Member
***
Offline


Gone for an undetermined
time

Posts: 132
Can God help us?
Reply #13 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 3:00pm
 
I think, if we worry that much about God, it is somehow because we wonder if God can help us at all improving our faith.

Do you think God can help us, in a way that we can see?

Sonia
Back to top
 

Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you. &&Maori Proverb&&&& &&
 
IP Logged
 
Alan McDougall
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male
Re: What is God?
Reply #14 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 8:19am
 
Hello people,

As you know I have been away due to eye ops, So I must consider all your posts carefully before responding intelligently.

What I read is that all of you have deep and profound ideas about  God 

I really like Sonia’s ideas I also don’t perceive god as a being something like a huge man. he is infinitely beyond that title for him

Briefly I perceive God as the eternal mind that is the cause of and that which sustains and drives all Existence,

He is the Ceaseless Creator of all things

Thank you all for your very intersting reponses which I will address one by one and return, hopefully with a good response to each

I did not intend to leave the thread hanging but my eyes would not permit me to repond until now (I know what poor Paul must have suffered, I think like me he had catarachs

Regards

Alan
Back to top
 

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall
WWW <a href= <a href=  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print


This is a Peer Moderated Forum. You can report Posting Guideline violations.