In my "Lilac Cologne" post, Roger asked me another question that I've not yet addressed.  He asked me how I'd assess the claim that OBEs prove the existence of an afterlife.  I'd like to address his query in this post, but expand it to  include various types of "phasing". 

I prefer words like "convincing" or "persuasive" to "proven". In philosophical analysis of the soul concept, at least 2 models dominate: the "ghost within a machine" view and the view that the body [brain] is like a transmitter and consciousness
is like radio waves that vibrate with unique frequencies to produce our sense of an individual soul.  If the "ghost within a machine" view is correct, then proof of survival seems more conceivable.  But if the transmitter view is correct, then it must be asked whether the energy of consciousness permanently ceases to funcion as such when the transmitter is destroyed.  Alternatively, it can be asked whether a spiritual body or light form operating in other dimensions can transmit the same vibration that reconstitutes the individual.  Of course, these are just analogies.  But the 2nd one makes me reluctant to imagine  "proof."

Just a word on why I want to expand the scope of inquiry to include all forms of "phasing," including Bruce's method of Focused Imagination.  Obviously, this expansion is warranted as a courtesy to Bruce.  But beyond that, I've recently changed my mind.  A couple of years ago on Robert Bruce's site, someone told me he experienced both OBEs and Bruce's mode of astral exploration.  He added that OBEs are much more convincing and that Bruce's method, though it can promote genuine astral experiences, can more easily be delusory.  I was intially influenced by this claim.  But upon further reflection, I now reaize that the most convincing astral explorer of all, Emanuel Swedenborg, used a method more akin to Bruce's than OBEs.  I'm also now convinced that the early Christian apostles, prophets, and mystics probably explored the heavenly realms through a method similar to Bruce's.  Towards the end Bob Monroe seems to have preferred the term "phasing" to "OBE."

To be sure, I have serious misgivings with several astral claims made by both Bruce and Robert Monroe.  But, after rereading Monroe's books, I now realize that he taxes my credulity far more than Bruce's books do.  Besides, I've not yet read 2 of Bruce's books!  Initially, I am in the process of attempting to explore by OBE, but only because of the resources I currently have on hand.

Here are the 5 questions I propose to explore.  I will gradually offer my answers over time, but, as always, I encourage anyone to jump in with their two cents worth whenever they feel so inclinced.

A. Are Sleep-induced OBEs more than lucid dreams?
B. Can LAB tests prove that the soul can really
    leave the body and be present at a soecified
    identification target in another room?
C.  How should we assess the general superiority
     of  natural OBEs or "phasing" as compared with
     induced OBEs?
D. What are the most evidential OBEs during NDEs?
E.  How should we assess the contradictions
     between OBE (and "phasing") adepts and the
     higly varied credibility of the evidence they
     provide?

May I interject a brief thought?  I have often wondered whether imagination, meditation, dreaming, lucid dreaming, astral travel, OBEs, and NDEs represent a spectrum of experience going from normal waking consciousness to the consciousness of the spirit world.  Perhaps there is no clear-cut point at which a person is either "in the body" or "out of the body."  In other words, perhaps at all times we are to varying degrees in the body or out of the body, depending on where the primary focus of our consciousness lies.  In waking reality it is the body/senses and rational mind alone.  In imagination and meditation it is a combination of the body and the mind, and maybe some elements of the spirit world in certain cases.  In dreams it is mostly the mind, especially the subconscious, sometimes partially the body, and sometimes partially the spirit world.  In lucid dreams, astral travel, and OBEs it might be more open to the spirit world and have no influence from the body.  In NDEs it may be primarily the spirit world with only some degree of influence from the subconscious mind, and none at all from the body/senses.  In death, of course, it is only the spirit world.

I guess what I'm saying is, consciousness could be more complicated then simply an in-body/out-of-body dichotomy.  Of course that jives with the idea of "Focus Levels" I have read about on Bruce Moen's website.  Just a thought for everyone's consideration.

Freebird

Quote:


There was a study done in 1907 by Duncan MacDougall, M.D.  Using highly sensitive equipment, he found that people suddenly lost a small amount of weight at the exact moment of death, which could not be accounted for by any explanation other than the soul leaving the body.  It was significantly less than 2 1/4 ounces, however.  Maybe the soul of a person at death is weak and burned out, so it weighs less, whereas a healthy person having an OBE would have a soul with more mass and thus more weight loss.

One problem with MacDougall's study is that it only involved six people.  Another strange finding is that a couple of the people lost weight at death and then suddenly lost more weight again a few minutes later.  I suppose this could be explained if the person had an attached entity such as an earthbound human or demon.  Yet another interesting finding -- and unfortunate, if this research can be trusted -- is that when MacDougall tested 15 dogs, none of them showed weight loss at death, implying that dogs have no soul.

Anyone who wants to read the story MacDougall published about his experiment can read it at http://www.ghostweb.com/soul.html

To my knowledge, this 1907 study has not been replicated.  If anyone knows of a more recent study of a similar nature, please let us know.

Freebird

D. WHAT ARE THE MOST EVIDENTIAL OBEs DURING
     NDEs?

(1) To me the most exciting survival evidence from NDEs is marshalled in Kenneth Ring's latest book, "Mindsight."   Ring documents the visual NDEs of 30 blind people.  Vicki Umipeg is one of the best examples.  Born blind, she is unable  to experience visual dreams.  Yet during her NDE Vicki "sees" dazzling colors that she of course has trouble distinguishing.  She encounters many people, including her grandma and two formerly retarded and blind ex-schoolmates, all of whom are brightly colored.  But Vicki's most dramatic and significant encounter is with Jesus, "a figure whose radiance is far greater than the illumination of any of the persons that she has so far encountered."

These cases suggest that once the soul detaches from the body it can experience any sense it is unable to experience during physical existence.  But the probative value of these cases is somewhat undermined by the absence of a similar study demonstrating that the deaf can hear voices and sounds never heard before during NDEs.  If that too can be proven, then we will be closer to proving the xxistence of a soul which can exist apart from the body.

(2) Another type of survival evidence derives from NDE cases in which people "hear" conversations both in and far from the operating room and "see" the operation of  medical equipment and objects far from the operating room.   Here are just three impressively verified examples:   

(a) During her NDE, Maria "saw" a distant sneaker with a worn toe and a shoelace underneath it on a 3rd floor ledge of the Seattle hospital in which she was being treated for her serious heart attack.   
A hospital social worker later verified her report. 

(b) W. A. Lafmann saw an old friend, Mr. Blose, during his hospital OBE:  "I tried to greet Mr. Blose by hitting him on the back, but my arm went through him...I saw that he went across the street and looked into a shop window where a miniature `Ferris Wheel' was on display."  Mr. Blose later verified Lafmann's report about the `Ferris Wheel.'

(c) Third, consider Mrs. R.M.s hospital OBE: "I wondered where my daughter was and the next instant I was standing beside her in a gift shop.  She was looking at some `Get Well' cards.  I could `hear' her read the verse.  She decided it would be disrespectful and bought another.  Then I was back in my body.  When my daughter came with the card, I repeated the verse she had read [from the unpurchased card!]."  The OBEs in (b) and (c) were experienced by seriously ill hospitalized patients, but it remains unclear whether their OBEs should be classified as NDEs.   

Skeptics have challenged the value of NDEs in which the patients accurately describe operating room equipment and procedures.   How do we know that these patients lacked prior knowledge of this?  To settle this question, cardiologist Michael Sabom (1982) compared the accuracy of the descriptions by NDE patients of resuscitations with the descriptions by cardiac patients who experienced no NDE, but who were asked to imagine what a resuscitation looked like.  The results showed that near-death experiencers were describing actual OBE observations of their resuscitation rather than imagined events. 

(3) Unique verifications emerge from NDE cases in which two distant experiences of dying are interconnected.   Sometimes a patient sees someone in the NDE tunnel who has died so recently that neither the patient nor his family has yet learned of this death.  Then there is the case of Albert Baldeo, a friend of my Dad [posted previously].   Albert was present at his father's deathbed.  Just before dying at 12 noon, his father gazed in the distance and said, "Hurry up, brother.  Hurry  Up!"   At exactly the same time, the brother of Albert's Dad was dying in a nursing home 10 miles away.  Just before dying, this brother was observed by witnesses to shout, "Wait for me, brother!  Wait for me!"  A perfect fit! 

(4) Less commonly, there are cases where children encounter relatives in the astral tunnel that they have never heard of.  These children later tell their parents something like, "She said she was my Aunt Doris.  Did I have an Aunt Doris who died?"

(5) A patient can occasionally be healed during her NDE.  Consider the [previously posted] case of Phyllis.  A couple of years ago, I met this highly skeptical woman at a wedding reception.  Phyllis had a PhD in medical research.  Being exceptionally cerebral, she retreated from her emotions in times of crisis.  Her mother had recently died and she couldn't deal with this; so she didn't.  Then she experienced her own crisis, a serious car accident that launched her into an NDE.  She found herself ascending to "a mall that wasn't really a mall," complete with a small orchestra playing softly in the background.  It was a mall composed of white light.  Phyllis came to a table at which her deceased mother was seated.  When Phyllis sat down, her mother admonished her intensely, "YOU HAVEN'T COME TO TERMS WITH MY DEATH.  YOUR DETACHED REACTION IS BLOCKING MY PROGRESS HERE!"  This uncomfortable conversation was anything but the expected warm mother-daughter encounter.  Phyllis felt relief when she was able to return to her body.  She fully recovered from her injuries. 

Not long after, she was back in the hospital to have surgery for a life-threatening illness.  As her condition worsened, she had her second NDE.  Back she returned to the mall in Paradise.  Once again, she joined her mother seated at a table.  Phyllis dreaded this contact because she had tried to forget about her mother's last NDE challenge.  The unearthly music played by the mall orchestra provided little comfort.  "YOU STILL HAVEN'T DEALT WITH MY PASSING!  I WANT TO MAKE PROGRESS HERE!"  Then her mother did something very interesting.  She pointed to the table and declared, "YOU HAVE TO MAKE THIS DISAPPEAR!" 

The table was apparently a part of elaborate thought structures that bound Mom to her daughter's problems.  I was shocked by her mother's claim because I had assumed that excessive grief--not detachment--inhibits the progress of our deceased loved ones.  Feeling very ashamed, a sulking Phyllis finally said, "WELL, I GUESS I'LL RETURN TO MY BODY NOW." 

Her mother's startling reply was totally unexpected: "NO, YOU'RE NOT READY TO RETURN YET.  YOU NEED TO GO WITH THESE PEOPLE."  Two men appeared and escorted her to "an elevator that wasn't really an elevator."  It as an elevator of of white light.  They ascended to a Healing Center where Phyllis experienced a procedure that she couldn't understand.  When she returned to her body, she was completely healed and didn't need her surgery!  She wondered, "What did they do to me and what can humanity learn from this?"  Can astral adepts visit this center and receive a healing for conditions that earthly doctors cannot treat?  I'm fascinated by this question.      

Betty Eadie's book "Embraced by the Light" was a bestseller for two years for good reason.  Betty experienced one of the most in depth NDEs of all time.  She also experienced a spectacular verification of its authenticity.  During her OBE, she encountered the unborn daughter she was ultimately destined to adopt.  On January 13, 2004 she was interviewed by George Noory on "Coast to Coast."  I will quote from the transcript:   

"I went on the learn that each one of us came to earth by choice,...that we actually chose our parents, and our life situations that we would experience.  And we did this so that we would have the spiritual growth that was necessary for each of us as individuals."

The most compelling OBEs are often those that clash with one's preconceptions and are therefore less likely to be the delusory product of wishful thinking.  Note that Betty's NDE forced a belief system crash in which she felt compelled to abandon her former belief in reincarnation: 

"I always believed in reincarnation because that was the only thing that made sense to me before the experience.  But during the experience, I actually asked about reincarnation, and I was told that reincarnation upon this earth--going through life's repeated lives--would not be necessary for the majority of the people, that there are other worlds that God created, and that our continued education would be best served in those places instead of here."

This perspective receives independent confirmation from the biblical and early Jewish teaching about the soul's preexistence, a teaching which neither Betty Eadie nor most Christians seem to be aware of.  For an in depth analysis of the case against reincarnation in the early church and Judaism, see my post "Reincarnation in the Bible and Early Church?" in the "Judaism and Early Church" section of Robert Bruce's "Astralpulse" forums. 

The prexistence of the soul is a standard Jewish belief in late antiquity.  Thus the Essenes believed that "the soul is immortal and imperishable.  Emanating from the finest ether, these souls become entangled, as it were, in the prison house of the body, to which they were dragged down by a sort of natural enticement (Josephus, Jewish Wars 2.8.11)."  And when were souls created in the first place?  2 Enoch, an apocalyptic Jewish work from c. 50 AD offers this answer: "For all the souls are prepared for eternity before the formation of the earth (23:5)."  In the Old Testament, Jeremiah's prophetic calling seems to have been prearranged during his soul's preexistent phase: "The Word of God came to me, saying, `Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you came to birth, I consecrated you, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:4-5)."  More intriguing is the implication in the Catholic Old Testament that the soul can acquire a good or bad character prior to birth: "I was a boy of happy disposition.  I had received a good soul as my lot, OR RATHER, BEING GOOD, I HAD ENTERED AN UNDEFILED BODY (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20)."

Many New Agers mistakenly assume that the disciples' question in John 9:1-2 implies a belief in reincarnation: "As Jesus went along, He saw a man born blind from birth.  His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'  `Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' Jesus replied, `but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.'"  Bible commentaries typically contend that the disciples' question reflects a rabbinic belief that a fetus can sin in its mother's womb.  But this rabbinic belief stems from around 300 AD--far too late to serve as the background for John 9:1-2.  Rather, the disciples' question reflects the belief attested in the Wisdom of Solomon that the soul can acquire a good or bad character prior to birth
Jesus does not dispute this belief, but merely asserts that this particular blind man was not born blind because of his own sins committed in his preexistent state.

The Coptic Gospel of Thomas is a collection of sayings of Jesus put together in eastern Syria between the late first and early second centuries.  Two sayiings in this Gospel ascribe a belief in the soul's preexistence to Jesus: "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into being (Gospel of Thomas 19)."  "The man who is old in days will not hesitate to ask  a child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live (Gospel of Thomas 4)."   The latter saying is an example of Semitic hyperbole: it does not seriously assume that babies that young can talk; rather, it implies that if they could talk, they could potentially recount their prior existence in heaven.

Note that Betty Eadie's NDE allows for the possibility that a very few souls actually do reincarnate.  This implication differs from biblical teaching and clashes with the anti-reincarnation stances of astral adept Emanuel Swedenborg and the prolific medium, Susie Smith.  I believe that even the best astral souces inform us about what is generally the case, but not necessarily about what is always the case.
_______________________

NOTE: This post will initiate a flurry of often controversial posts from me to tie up loose ends from my prior posts.   I apologize for once again being a bit of a board hog.  But I pledge to you that, 2 weeks from today (Mnnday), I will begin a vacation of at least 2 months from this site to renew my efforts to experience a genuine OBE.  True, so far I've learned by direct experience that my OBEs and retrievals are not authentic.  But I am a  great believer in the importance of replication and the need to reassess my current skepticism.  I am now motivated to try a 2-pronged approach: (1) disciplined practice with my complete set of Gateway CDs; (2) practice of the excellent methods described in the new guide by Robert Bruce and Brian Mercer, "Masterying Astral Projection: 90-Day Guide to Out-of-Body Experience."

Hi Roger,

  There is a beautiful sentiment that i read in a great little fictional book called "Illusions" written by Richard Bach.   There is a part where Donald, the narraters friend who happens to be a fully "enlightened Master" type talks about how everything is an illusion.   So, Richard says something along the lines of whats the point....so that beautiful sunset is not real and means nothing....etc.    Donald replies something to the effect that the form of all he described is an illusion, but the beauty of it or within it is very real and that there is a very important difference.   

Well, its a great little read and even my super skeptical friend loved it. 

Take care and all the best

Well Don, I wish you well in your quest but are you prepared for what might happen assuming you don't succeed? 

I presume your own belief in the afterlife will be unchanged, but maybe not. 

I continue to be baffled as to why these OBE adepts simply do not arrange for a conclusive demonstration of their abilities.  Per their books, they can do them almost at will and they presume to tell us how we can do them also.

And certainly the media these days would love to follow such a story.  In the old days with just the 3 networks, forget it.  But today with the highly competitive atmosphere of cable TV not to mention online journalists and bloggers, this story would easily pop up on any number of outlets, not just in obscure books or journals.

I can accept the probability that scientists would not pursue it at least initially, but the media these days pursues virtually anything and everything. 

The fact that this doesn't happen makes me wonder what's going on.  Either there is a lot of exaggeration in what the adepts say, or the world they enter while OB is so different from our waking world that verification is at best a dicey proposition.

Don, just for the record, anyone can talk to Yeshua. I do regularly.

Love and Light,
Mairlyn