If you haven't read this book, google Colton's Dad, Todd Burpo, and watch some of the impressive interviews on Youtube.  Todd is a Wesleyan Methodist pastor in a small town in Imperial, Nebraska.  He also serves on the local school board, serves as a wrestling coach for the local high and junior high schools, and also serves as a volunteer fireman.  Todd is a loving guy who is down to earth and very credible.  Little Colton's NDE at age 4 occurred during an emergency appendectomy in a North Platte hospital.  Colton's appendix ruptured and a massive infection set in after the surgery that required a second surgery.  The doctors and nurses serving Colton gave him no chance to survive, but of course he came through as good as new. 

The first hint that something unusual had happened was Colton's observation, "Dad, I almost died...God used Dr. Holleran to fix me.  You need to pay him."  This claim puzzled Todd because Colton seemed to scream every time Dr. Hollaran poked and probed him. and had no sense that this was for a healing purpose.  The reason for the comment became clear when Colton later reported watching the doctor operate on him from an OBE perspective.  When I find the time, I will survey Colton's NDE and put its most striking details in the perspective of other evidential NDEs.

Don

Later, when the Burpos were driving near the hospital, Todd jokingly asked Colton whether he wanted to return to the hospital.  His young son unexpectedly replied, "That's where the angels sang to me."  Asked what songs they sang, he replied, "Jesus Loves Me" and "Joshua at the Battle of Jericho (a lively Gospel song appropriate for a 4-year-old)."  Colton asked if they could sing, "We Will, We Will Rock You," but they replied that that would not be the right song to sing in heaven.  Colton said Jesus asked them to sing because he was so scared, but their singing calmed his fears.  When asked where Jesus was at the time, Colton replied, "Dad, I was sitting in His lap!" 

I have shared my cousin E's experience as a 3-year-old.  His pastor Dad, George, was asked to perform an exorcism on a lady in her home.  Meanwhile, E was waiting outside in the car with his mother, my Aunt Ruth.  When the exorcism succeeded, E's eyes rolled up in his sockets so that only the whites were visible and E began screaming relentlessly.  His parents realized that the expelled entity was now trying to possess E.  It took several minutes before E was freed from this danger and calmed down.  E is now a psychiatrist and says that all he now recalls of the incident is bieng lovingly cradled in Jesus' arms. I've mentioned this expeirence before, but mention it again because of the parallel with Colton's experience of being cradled on Jesus' lap. 

Don

I think that is a very good story. It reminds me of the book 'The boy who saw true' by Cyril Scott. That is the diary of a six year old boy in the Victorian age in England who finds it difficult to accept that his parents and sister cannot see aura's and ghosts like him. He decided not to talk about it anymore and write a diary about it.

The book was published after his death and because of the funny writing errors this original diary feels fresh and spontanuous.
It's not Cyril Scott's own diary but from someone else.

Hi Don-

NDEs as related by children have credibility mainly because a child has no agenda of any kind or preconceptions that could affect an adult's interpretation.  Also they don't hold anything back as an adult might for fear of ridicule.  They "tell it like it is."

Btw I'm looking forward to your posts on the Religion thread.  I was brought up in the Methodist church but fell away many years ago.  Not because I disbelieve the Bible or what Jesus taught, but marriage and children became my main interest along with my career.

I believe it's past time that I reconnect with Christianity and hope I can do so with the impetus of your posts.  No matter how successful I've become and regardless of my material wealth, there is a spiritual emptiness that needs to be filled. 

R

Rondele,

I prefer not to establish the agenda in serious spiritual conversations.  Would you consider creating a list of questions that are important to you in the Religion section that might form the basis of a series of responses?  If not, I'll start a thread about basic questions about Christianity when I return from Buffalo to perform the wedding for a young man who was a small boy when I was there.  I'll be gone from this site for two weeks, the first week of which is our annual denominational conference. 

Back to Colton's NDE, I'm fascinated by a 4-year-old's efforts to describe scenes beyond his vocabulary and prior experience.  For example, Todd asks his son what Jesus looked like and Colton replied, "Jeus had markers."  He goes on to explain that Jesus had red marks on top of His feet and on his hands.  Colton has no idea that these symbolize Jesus blood wounds form his crucifixion.  Colton claims that Jesus had hair on his face and wore white and also "purple from here to here." The boy makes motions to depict Jesus' sash, a concept beyond Colton's experience.  He adds that Jesus  "wore a gold thing on his head," an obvious reference to a symbolic crown.  Colton makes the same motion to depict the yellow sashes worn by the children in heaven.  Purple, of course, is the symbol of royality, but Colton would hardly know that at age 4.  Then he observes, "everybody's got a light over their heads."  I doubt that a 4-year old would have the concept of halos; so this too is impressive.  Finally, he says that Jesus introduced him to His cousin, but Colton could not recall his name.  I doubt that a 4-year-old would rightly identify John  the Baptist as Jesus' cousin. 

I found one detail of Colton's interaction with Jesus particularly poignant: "Daddy, remember when I was yelling at you in the hospital when I waked up?"  "Jesus said I had to come back because He was answering your prayer.  That's why I was yelling."  NDErs are routinely told they must now return, but what makes this element special here is that Todd's praying included a series of rude and bitter complaints to God for allowing this fate to victimize his son.   Obviously, Todd's despair did not prevent God from discerning the love beneath the raving. 

My next planned posts will focus on the various verifications that Colton provides for his NDE. 

Don-

When will you be in Buffalo?  We're just a short drive here in Canada.  Also what is the last day you'll be on ak?

I'll post two basic questions on Religion board that will start the conversation.

R

Don,

I am always heartened by these NDE accounts.  I think the strongest verifications for me came not from the description of Jesus, but from the messages communicated from the child.

I believe that if the child were raised in the home of a pastor, it is quite possible that he may have seen images of Jesus, or seen books (I used to read Bible stories to my kids when they were 3 and 4 and show them books with pictures at that time).  From what I have read, Jesus was a humble man, a carpenter, and he is seen by different people in different ways in NDEs.  The purple sash and the like strike me as unnecessary, and an invention of man, painters, etc.  The person experiencing the NDE sees/hears what he/she needs to see. 

But for me, the most striking part of it all is the more direct awareness and messages that youngster had of God, having to go back and the rest.  I will be interested to read more about it. 

M

VERIFICATION #! (Not the strongest, but interesting)
While in surgery, Colton watches Dr. Holloran operate on him from above.  He would later insist that his Dad pay the doctor for "fixing" him. Previously, Colton had only experienced the doctor as hurting him with his probes and jabs.  More impressively, Colton sees his Dad praying for him in a small room and his mother praying for him in a different hospital room and then making a phone call in that room.  Both details proved correct. 

The next two verifications impress me the most:

VERIFICATION#2:
A few days later, Colton asks Todd: "Dad, you had a grandpa named Pop, ddin't you?" Colton had never met or even heard of his great grandfather, who had died in a car accident. Todd confirms this. Colton: "Yeah, I got to stay with him in heaven.  You were really close to him, huh, Dad?”  Todd's Dad was bipolar; so Todd spent a lot of time on Pop's farm. 
Todd tells him that he and Pop used to take the dog out to hunt rabbits.  Colton replies, “Yeah, he told me.”  I wish Todd had not volunteered this detail and instead elicited it from Colton by asking about Pop's recounting of life with young Todd. 

Todd's wife, Sonja then asks Colton: “Did Jesus say anything about Dad becoming a pastor.”  Colton: “Oh yes, Jesus said he went to Daddy and told Daddy he wanted him to become a pastor, and Daddy said Yes, and Jesus was really  happy.”  When Todd was a boy (age 13) he was attending a youtn service in which the  pastor challenged the youth to consider being pastors. Todd says he then heard an inner voice say: “That's you, Todd.  That's what I want you to do.” 

Later, Colton says, “I've seen power shot down to Daddy...Jesus shoots down power for Daddy when he's talking.”  Similarly, in Betty Eadie's NDE, she reports seeing prays rising like lasers towards heaven.

fTodd was disappointed when he later showed Colton his favorite photo of Pop, but the boy didn't recognize him.  Colton: “Dad, nobody's old in heaven and nobody wears glasses.”  Several weeks later, Todd got his Mom to mail a copy of an old black and white photo of  4 people, including Grandma Ellen in her 20s (now in her 80s) and Pop at age 29.  “Hey, Colton, come here and take a look at this, Colton.  What do you think.” “Hey!  How did you get a picture of Pop?”  “Colton, don't you recognize anyone else in the picture?”  “No.”  I leaned over and pointed to my grandma (Ellen):  Colton had seen Grandma Ellen just a couple of months ago.  I leaned over and pointed to my grandma: “Who do you think that is?”  “I  don't know.”  “That's grandma Ellen.”  Colton, with a skeptical expression: “That doesn't look like Gramdma Ellen.”  Todd: “Well, she used to look like that.”

Todd later asked the 4-year-old a trick question about heaven: “So when it got dark and you went home with Pop, what did you two do?”  Colton: “God and Jesus light up heaven.  It never gets dark.  It's always bright.”  That claim is made in the Book of Revelation about which Colton knew nothing.

VERIFICATION #3:
h. Colton later claims: “I have 2 sisters.”  His mother, Sonja, replies: “No, you have one, Cassie—and, do you mean your cousin Traci?”  Colton: “No, I have 2 sisters.  You had a baby die in your tummy, didn't you?”  Colton had never been told about this miscarriage.  Colton: “It's OK, God adopted her.”  Sonja: “You mean Jesus?”  No,  Mommy, His Dad did.”  Colton describes this heavenly sister as hving dark hair and being smaller than Cassie, adding:   
“In heaven, this little girl ran up to me and she wouldn't stop hugging me.”  Todd: “What was the little girl's name?”  “She doesn't have a name.  You guys didn't name her.”  True.  Later, an 8th grade girl was babysitting for Todd's children and burst into tears after seeing Colton cry because he missed his sister.  Ali thought he meant Cassie, but he meant the sister who had died in childbirth before Colton was born. 

Hi Don,

A very heart warming account of a true happening, not a story but a testimony of a little child about heaven.

Thanks

God Bless

Alan

Don (Berserk):

I checked Colton’s book out of the library and decided to not read all of it because it seemed as if what Colton has to share is for a target audience that has trouble thinking out of the box. For example, people who have the mentality that causes them to insist that God looks like a man. I forget the precise description Colton used when he described Satan—he basically said that Satan is a creature that has several monster heads.  It seems to me that he found out about a lead evil being in a symbolic way that a little boy (and eventually his intended audience) could understand.

I stopped reading the book when Colton told his dad that he is concerned about whether or not a man who had recently died had accepted Jesus into his heart.  Colton believed that if the man hadn’t, the man would go to hell. Such a way of thinking matches what fundamentalist Christians say.

I have a big place for Jesus in my heart; nevertheless, the above troubles me because there is too much of a fear element attached.  A “you better accept Jesus or else” sentiment. I do not believe this is what Jesus is about.  Rather, I believe this possibility exists—I’ll start with a metaphor. Say there are a bunch of people who live in an area where they are forced to be slaves. A man finds the way out and shows it to others.  Jesus is like this man.  He is perhaps the first soul with a human connection who found his way back to spiritual perfection.  Therefore, when souls with a human history find their way back to spiritual perfection, they find the way that Jesus found.  There isn’t anything repressive or dictator-like about accepting the route that Jesus found. It is a matter of knowing a good thing when you see it.

Going by my experiences with Jesus, even though he is spiritually evolved, he is a very humble and down to Earth being who wouldn’t expect people to treat him in a worshipful simply because he was the first person to find his way out of a slave area. Finding his way isn’t about being submissive to another because you are afraid to not be submissive to such a being.  Rather, his way is about opening up to the most wonderful and love-based way of being there is.  I doubt that Jesus is rigid about how people open up to such an approach.

I suppose there are some people that to some degree need a fear-based approach because they find it difficult to think out of the box. As human history shows such an approach has its shortcomings.  A person won’t be able to open up to divine truth completely until fear is no longer a driving force on how he chooses. Therefore, it troubles me when a book that has some fundamentalist sentiment has been so widely accepted. When will the day come where a large number of people will be open to hearing what Jesus had to say and what he is about without having to include limited and repressive mumbo jumbo? 

Considering Colton's father's background, how would he have responded if Colton shared viewpoints that were less fundamentalist? If Colton told his father that reincarnation exists, would his father conclude that he was misled by a demon?

Well said, Recoverer.
Your metaphor is very nice.

Thank you Mogenblue. I figured that you see the matter in a similar way as I wrote above.


Mogenblue wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 2:51pm:

Well said, Recoverer. Your metaphor is very nice.

recoverer wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 3:15pm:

Thank you Mogenblue. I figured that you see the matter in a similar way as I wrote above.

;D Aren't we gonna fight anymore?  ;)

I have a friend I have extensive conversations with and sometimes we disagree, but we don't fight. :)




Mogenblue wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 3:19pm:

recoverer wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 3:15pm: Thank you Mogenblue. I figured that you see the matter in a similar way as I wrote above. ;D Aren't we gonna fight anymore?  ;)

[recoverer:] I stopped reading the book when Colton told his dad that he is concerned about whether or not a man who had recently died had accepted Jesus into his heart.  Colton believed that if the man hadn’t, the man would go to hell. Such a way of thinking matches what fundamentalist Christians say.

So, recoverer, the moment you encounter an experiential detail that is not consistent with your own experience, your bias compels you to stap listening, even if that person's verifications are far superior to any of your own?   You are the walking definition of the close-minded New Age Ghetto.  Actually, I think you are totally distorting what Jesus actually communicated to Colton.  He was just 4, remember, too young to grasp the intricracies of the Christian Gospel.  Why not read the book and discover the full depths of what Colton's innocence has to offer?  If you do, I'm confident I can satisfy you about your complaint.

Hi Recoverer,
Do you suppose that the child was coxed/schooled and infuenced by his father, to me this is a real possibility? The account is very detailed and hard to believe that it just originated from a boy of 4 years of age?

Alan

Hi Don,

I like you believe there in no way to the father but through Jesus! I think that this really means, that the dead who have never heard of Jesus must also meet and accept or reject Jesus after they die in the afterlife. Just like those who are alive who had a chance in life due to being given the Gospel during their lives.

Everyone both the living and dead will see the Judgement day at the end of time. Why judge everyone if they are guilty and going to the same place namely hell, why must God waste his time, why judge if everyone is just going to be thrown into hell?

It is obvious if one reads the Gospels carefully that there are various degrees of punishments and various degrees of rewards in the afterlife as meted out by the infinite wisdom of God.

Jesus stated ‘Some will be beaten with few stripes and some with many” Clearly telling us we don’t all get the same punishment after death!

Jesus also said in the Beatitudes, “Great shall be your reward in heaven” Again clearly indicating that some will get great rewards and some lesser ones”

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

I could go into extreme detail this idea but I leave if for now

Quote:

I like you believe there in no way to the father but through Jesus! I think that this really means, that the dead who have never heard of Jesus must also meet and accept or reject Jesus after they die in the afterlife. Just like those who are alive who had a chance in life due to being given the Gospel during their lives.

It does not seem wise to me to put Jesus above LOVE which is what some religions do.

It is so clear to me that it matters what is in the inner nature of a man or a woman (what is in their heart), and not the identification of a single name or person (JC) that will determine their post-mortem fate. 

I maintain that the statement "no one can come to the father but through the son (JC)," can mean that he (JC) showed how it was done (to die and then reach heaven) through love - so that if a man wants to go back to the father (God) they must go in the same way JC did - through love and peace, along with giving up on egoistic self serving thought.   I think when this saying is repeated too many times, some fundamentalists believe that if you are not christian, and state aloud that you accept Jesus, you will be condemned to Hell even if you are a "good person."  This doesn't fit at all with the spirit of the gospels. 

DocM wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:26am:

It is so clear to me that it matters what is in the inner nature of a man or a woman (what is in their heart), and not the identification of a single name or person (JC) that will determine their post-mortem fate.

That's right. We were one with God before the Big Bang.
After the Big Bang our souls were created in a predefined path. Jesus was the first and had therefore the "edge", so to speak. If I had been the first ..... I would have had to come back 2000 years ago and had myself crucified.....
We will all return to God consciously and Jesus is not higher then LOVE. Jesus was not the creator of Love. He was created by it.

But if you say we are God with everything that goes with it BECAUSE we were One before the Big Bang then we are all the creator of LOVE. But then that still does not make Jesus better then any of us. We would still remain equal and one. Although we, overhere on Earth, still have a long way to make it all our own.

Don:

Coulton's father was a pastor, so it's hard to believe that he was totaly ignorant about his father's Methodist viewpoints.

Gosh, you speak as if you are representing Christ's way, and then you get into that new age ghetto talk. Do you actually believe that such an approach is what Christ's love is about?

I figure that the beings Colton met with might've been wise enough to be careful about the kind of information they presented to Colton because if they weren't, his father might accuse him of being a part of the new age ghetto.

The truth that Jesus represents existed long before mankind's Christianity (it's numerous interpretations), and it will continue to exist long after mankind's Christianity no longer exists.

The reason many people have a hard time with Jesus is because too many people have sadly and erroneosly made him seem as if he is a heartless and ruthless dictator. A while back I went through a phase where I was being a bit fundamentalist on this forum, and the love-based beings I communicate with told me "You make us sound like a bunch of dictators."

JESUS IS NOT A DICTATOR! He is a being of perfect love and wisdom and acts like one regardless of what some people accuse him of. Is it really so bad what I wrote on my previous post?

God isn't looking for mindless slaves. He's looking for beings of love and wisdom.




Berserk2 wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 9:11pm:

[recoverer:] I stopped reading the book when Colton told his dad that he is concerned about whether or not a man who had recently died had accepted Jesus into his heart.  Colton believed that if the man hadn’t, the man would go to hell. Such a way of thinking matches what fundamentalist Christians say. So, recoverer, the moment you encounter an experiential detail that is not consistent with your own experience, your bias compels you to stap listening, even if that person's verifications are far superior to any of your own?   You are the walking definition of the close-minded New Age Ghetto.  Actually, I think you are totally distorting what Jesus actually communicated to Colton.  He was just 4, remember, too young to grasp the intricracies of the Christian Gospel.  Why not read the book and discover the full depths of what Colton's innocence has to offer?  If you do, I'm confident I can satisfy you about your complaint.

Lucy and Mogenblue made a good point. No one is above love.

Here's a late addition to my below post.

The statements "Jesus loves you" and "You better believe in him or you'll go to hell for all of eternity" don't go together. Yet, that's how fundamentalists have presented them.


recoverer wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 12:28pm:

Don: Coulton's father was a pastor, so it's hard to believe that he was totaly ignorant about his father's Methodist viewpoints. Gosh, you speak as if you are representing Christ's way, and then you get into that new age ghetto talk. Do you actually believe that such an approach is what Christ's love is about? I figure that the beings Colton met with might've been wise enough to be careful about the kind of information they presented to Colton because if they weren't, his father might accuse him of being a part of the new age ghetto. The truth that Jesus represents existed long before mankind's Christianity (it's numerous interpretations), and it will continue to exist long after mankind's Christianity no longer exists. The reason many people have a hard time with Jesus is because too many people have sadly and erroneosly made him seem as if he is a heartless and ruthless dictator. A while back I went through a phase where I was being a bit fundamentalist on this forum, and the love-based beings I communicate with told me "You make us sound like a bunch of dictators." JESUS IS NOT A DICTATOR! He is a being of perfect love and wisdom and acts like one regardless of what some people accuse him of. Is it really so bad what I wrote on my previous post? God isn't looking for mindless slaves. He's looking for beings of love and wisdom. Berserk2 wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 9:11pm: [recoverer:] I stopped reading the book when Colton told his dad that he is concerned about whether or not a man who had recently died had accepted Jesus into his heart.  Colton believed that if the man hadn’t, the man would go to hell. Such a way of thinking matches what fundamentalist Christians say. So, recoverer, the moment you encounter an experiential detail that is not consistent with your own experience, your bias compels you to stap listening, even if that person's verifications are far superior to any of your own?   You are the walking definition of the close-minded New Age Ghetto.  Actually, I think you are totally distorting what Jesus actually communicated to Colton.  He was just 4, remember, too young to grasp the intricracies of the Christian Gospel.  Why not read the book and discover the full depths of what Colton's innocence has to offer?  If you do, I'm confident I can satisfy you about your complaint.

recoverer,

I'm saying that your comments and refusal to continue reading distort what Colton's NDE actually does and does not teach about Jesus.  So read or reread the book to get the whole picture. 

Don:

I don't know when I'll be able to get a copy of the book again. The part of the book I'm speaking of,  Colton did tell his dad that if a recently deceased man hadn't accepted Jesus in his heart, he would go to hell.

Going by what other parts of the book said, did he say something that shows that he received information during his NDE that contradicts the "you better accept or else viewpoint?"

On an earlier post you wrote to me, "your bias compels you to stop listening, even if that person's verifications are far superior to any of your own."

Are you certain enough about my knowledge and experiences to know that I couldn't have an understanding that is wiser than the you better accept or else viewpoint?

Consider this example. A fundamentalist writes a book about Jesus. When I start reading it I don't know that it was written by fundamentalist. After reading the book for a while I find that the author makes statements that are fundamentalist in nature. Would I actually be required to read the rest of the book just in case the author starts speaking in a way that is non-fundamentalist? Or would it be best for me to save some time and not continue reading the book?

What if you started to read a book that claimed to be a valid source of divine information. Early on it states that ACIM comes from Jesus Christ. Would you feel compelled to keep reading the book just in case it rights itself, or would the early statements about ACIM deter you?



Berserk2 wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 3:21pm:

recoverer, I'm saying that your comments and refusal to continue raeding distort what Colton's NDE actually does and does not teach about Jesus.  So read or reread the book to get the whole picture.

From the New York Times:

"Heaven Is for Real” was published in late 2010, became a word-of-mouth best seller and has spent 59 (nonconsecutive) weeks as the No. 1 nonfiction paperback on The New York Times’s best-seller list. Recently the publisher, Thomas Nelson, spun off a children’s picture book, now also a best seller, with illustrations verified by Colton. And sometime in 2014, courtesy of DeVon Franklin, vice president of production at Columbia Pictures, who considers his faith “a professional asset,” a movie version should be released in theaters. "

Wow! I'll bet the Burpo's are laughing all the way to the bank!

Lynn Vincent, who co-authored the book with Todd Burpo. Quote: "Vincent, a U.S. Navy veteran, spent 11 years as an investigative reporter and feature writer for WORLD magazine, a conservative Christian newsweekly with a paid subscribership of more than 120,000. She has lectured on writing at the World Journalism Institute, and at The King's College in New York City. Vincent was hired by former Alaska governor and vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin to be the collaborator on Palin's memoir, Going Rogue. Upon release, the book immediately hit no. 1 on the New York Times bestseller list. Palin's memoir is one of only four political memoirs to sell more than 1 million copies, with current sales over 3 million."

Wow! She must be one helluva writer/storyteller!

The World Journalism Institute and the King's College. Quote: "The World Journalism Institute (WJI) was founded by Robert Case II in 1999. WJI is an independent journalism school whose mission is to recruit, equip, place and encourage journalists who are Christians in the mainstream newsrooms of America. In 1998, Marvin Olasky, Nick Eicher, and Robert Case II discussed the possibility of establishing an independent school of journalism with Joel Belz, publisher of World magazine. The institute is currently the largest independent school of journalism for Christian journalists in the U.S. and is headquartered in New York City on the campus of The King's College."

Don't fundamentalist Christians also call themselves conservative Christians?

Now from the other side. Quote: "It is rather a shame. Thanks to Heaven Is For Real, for the rest of Colton Burpo’s life people may well want to talk to him about something he barely remembers more than anything he achieves afterwards.

What Colton Burpo didn’t already know about what was going on in the real world while he was unconscious, he could have guessed (for instance that his extremely religious parents were praying). If any of the real-world revelations still seem too unlikely, the father and author Todd Burpo admits a period at the beginning of the poor kid’s interrogation when Todd hadn’t thought not to ask leading questions. There’s no telling what he fed Colton.

As for Colton’s descriptions of heaven, he could have picked up any amount of theological geography from his father before the event. Despite this, he recounted a great deal of detail which doesn’t match the Bible at all. Some believers have rejected the whole thing on this basis, but there are many others who simply ignore what Colton got “wrong” even as they proclaim what he got “right”.

There’s a decent critique of the book and the kid’s story here, written by a Christian apologist academic of all people. He’s one of those for whom the “wrong” theology is a dealbreaker. So you see, even many of the faithful aren’t happy with Colton’s testimony."

Here's the Christian apologist academic article. Quote: 'Heaven may be for real, but no matter how emotionally appealing you find it, the story in this book – isn’t.

These days there are more than a few “near death experience” books making the rounds that were written by Christians. This one’s a little different in that the witness is a very young boy, Colton Burpo – which makes the emotional appeal all the harder to wipe out with rational analysis.

However, like it or not, from an evidential perspective, the details in the book don’t add up to a reliable testimony. Not that there is much useful that could be used for that. Over 99 percent of the book is simply narrative, with nothing with which the spirits can be tested save a few details, which can be classified into two categories.

The first category could be good proof for the veracity of Colton’s experiences, if they could surely be found to be valid – which they unfortunately cannot. The second category, however, absolutely proves Colton’s story to be merely a case of imagination – and we’ll get to that shortly.

The first category has to do with events allegedly perceived by the subject NDE experiencer which occur during their indisposition – typically, things like allegedly seeing loved ones from some higher vantage point. I’m not out here to determine whether NDE experiences are real or not, but I will judge whether the evidence given shows that this one is, and the evidence in this first category, while seemingly impressive on the surface, doesn’t add up to enough significance to be determinative:

xx-xxi, 61 – Colton claims he left his body and saw what turned out to be an accurate (but very vague) description of what his parents were doing at the time: His father praying in one room, and his mother on the phone and praying in another.

43 – Colton indicates knowledge that he had nearly died.

91 – Colton tells his father that Jesus had called him (Todd) to be a pastor when he was younger.

94-5 – Colton shows awareness of having had an unborn sister who had died while still enwombed.

122-3 Colton recognizes a photo of his deceased grandfather as a younger man, matching it to a man he reputedly met in heaven.

Finally, here and there, there are examples given where Colton describes details in accord with some Biblical text (particularly Revelation).

Todd Burpo assures us that he shared none of these details with Colton, but there is little done to validate this assurance. For the second example (43) he wonders if the medical staff of the hospital could have said something Colton overheard, but this is not investigated at all. For the rest, there is nothing to show that these details were not somehow gathered by some other means by Colton – whether from other relatives, members of Burpo’s church, or overheard conversations with other parties.

That’s the first category. The second has fewer entries, but it far more damning for the authenticity of Colton’s experiences, especially as far as the Christian is concerned: How well do Colton’s experiences accord with external evidence not found in the Bible? It’s the sort of thing that could never occur to someone like Colton’s father Todd as a small town pastor whose theological education is quite limited (a BA in Theology), and so offers an ideal way to “test the spirits”.

100-1 – though rightly offering the Biblical detail that Jesus sat at God’s right hand, Colton offers the non-Biblical detail that Gabriel sits at God’s left. However, in reality, this would be a serious violation of the protocols of honor and hierarchy, and difficult to explain barring an overhaul of theology as we know it. Gabriel being seated at God’s left would amount to just about making him a co-ruler with God and His rough equal. If any ought be seated on God’s left, it is the Spirit. (Good thing Colton did not say it was Michael, or the JWs would have to rework their whole christology!)

133 – highly problematic for me as a preterist, Colton sees Satan running around free.

67 – However, the detail that ultimately invalidates Colton’s experiences irrevocably is that he describes seeing the wounds of Jesus’ crucifixion. Apart from questions of whether the wounds were indeed present after the Resurrection (the showing of the hands and feet is better related to the social concept of hands and feet as “zones of interaction” validating Jesus’ physical presence), Colton places then in Jesus’ palms and the middle of his feet – whereas genuine crucifixion victims had nails driven into their wrists and heel. Ironically, Todd Burpo does not believe his son ever saw a crucifix, and says, “We know where the nails were driven when Jesus was crucified” – but with this, he unwittingly shows that Colton’s vision of a wounded Jesus did come from some more modern image, because the fact is, he and Colton do NOT know where the nails went.

144 --Just as damning is the fact that Colton identified Jesus with a portrait done by Akiane Kramarik, who was also a very young child who claimed an NDE and a heavenly visit. While Todd Burpo sees in this an amazing validation, a look at Kramarik’s portrait shows it to be the white, Anglo-Saxon Jesus of modern, Western culture – a being that would have been recognized as a foreigner in first century Jewish Palestine.

Sadly, there is more at stake here than a child’s winsome but wayward tale of heavenly experiences. There is not much theology in this book, but what little there is, is highly questionable (such as a poor theology of prayer s a gumball machine, 109). Far worse, however, is that this book will draw us much further into the trap that is emotional and experiential authentication and away from support for our loyalty (faith) in evidence. Having been a #1 New York Times bestseller, the success of this book is more a tragedy than something to be celebrated."

Harvey

DocM wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:26am:

It is so clear to me that it matters what is in the inner nature of a man or a woman (what is in their heart), and not the identification of a single name or person (JC) that will determine their post-mortem fate.  I maintain that the statement "no one can come to the father but through the son (JC)," can mean that he (JC) showed how it was done (to die and then reach heaven) through love - so that if a man wants to go back to the father (God) they must go in the same way JC did - through love and peace, along with giving up on egoistic self serving thought.   I think when this saying is repeated too many times, some fundamentalists believe that if you are not christian, and state aloud that you accept Jesus, you will be condemned to Hell even if you are a "good person."  This doesn't fit at all with the spirit of the gospels.

Excellent, logical thought expressed with your usual
kindness.  By the way, although abit late, I hope you
and your family had a happy Father's Day.

[recoverer:] I don't know when I'll be able to get a copy of the book again. The part of the book I'm speaking of,  Colton did tell his dad that if a recently deceased man hadn't accepted Jesus in his heart, he would go to hell.

No, you are misrepsenting Colton.  The word "Hell" is not mentioned in the statement in question.  More importantly, Colton never claims that Jesus told him anything like this in his NDE.  True, Colton and the deceased chlldren he encounters do experience Jesus in their hearts.  I had planned to discuss the issue of Christian NDE features after I presented the paranormal evidence that helped make this a best seller.  But first I'm off to Buffalo from Washington sate to perform a wedding.  So I'll have to postpone this for a week. 

Berserk2 wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:27pm:

[recoverer:] I don't know when I'll be able to get a copy of the book again. The part of the book I'm speaking of,  Colton did tell his dad that if a recently deceased man hadn't accepted Jesus in his heart, he would go to hell. No, you are misrepsenting Colton.  The word "Hell" is not mentioned in the statement in question.  More importantly, Colton never claims that Jesus told him anything like this in his NDE.  True, Colton and the deceased chlldren he encounters do experience Jesus in their hearts.  I had planned to discuss the issue of Christian NDE features after I presented the paranormal evidence that helped make this a best seller.  But first I'm off to Buffalo from Washington sate to perform a wedding.  So I'll have to postpone this for a week.

Hi Don please respond to this story?



The story of Beauty an African girl.

The following trial and judgment is based on the teachings of the world’s leading clergymen and theologians. “My God is a god of love not the monster depicted by these idiots “in the following imaginary trial on the great judgment day of God”

A theoretical Judgment Day for a young African girl named Beauty, who died at age seventeen while giving birth to her first child:

God: What do you have to say for yourself, Beauty?

Beauty: I’m sorry, your holiness, I am frightened and I don’t understand the question.

God: There is nothing to be frightened of, my child. I won’t hurt you. Tell me about your life?

Beauty: I was born number three of seven children. My mother and father loved us very much. They taught us many things like, food getting, fire cooking, clothes making, basket making, the rules of our tribe, and how to worship the great maker.

God: That would be me. I am the Great Maker. Tell me about that. How did you worship me?

Beauty: Well, we were told to treat everyone in the tribe real good. That is what the great maker wanted all of us to do to be really good to all people. We were told that the great maker would then be really good to us. Life was pretty good except when we didn’t have much food to eat, and when a bad tribe from far away came and burned our village and killed many of our people.

God: Did you hate those bad men who killed your people?

Beauty: Yes, your holiness, of course we hated them.

God: Do you know that it is a sin to hate?

Beauty: What is a sin?

God: Something bad.

Beauty: I knew it was bad to cheek my Mother and Father. I was but seven years old when my village was burned. I don’t think I hate them anymore. All I ever wanted was a place to live in peace with enough food to eat, and to raise my baby to be a fine woman. Is that bad, your holiness?

God: You mean to tell me you have never done anything bad that you knew was bad?

Beauty: Yes I did, your holiness, many times. And my mother would hit my bottom with a stick if she saw me do something bad. But when I was having my baby, it hurt a hundred times more than when mother hit me with a stick. And that’s the last thing I remember until being brought here.

God: You know, Beauty, I had a son.

Beauty: I’ll bet you were real proud of him.

God: No one will ever know how much. All his life, he taught people to love each other and to forgive each other for being bad, and even to love their enemies.

Beauty: He sounds like a nice man.

God: Yes he was. But when he was just a young man, the worshippers of the great maker banded together and killed my son by nailing him to a cross made out of wood.

Beauty: Oh, God! I am so sorry. I know you must miss him a lot.

God: No, child. He’s alive with me. I brought him back to life only three days after they killed him. He is now the saviour of all people on earth.

Beauty: We never heard of your son in Africa where I live. I so wish that your son could have saved my tribe from those bad people when I was a little girl.

God: My son can save people even if they are dead.

Beauty: Wow! That sounds too good to be true. How does you son actually save all people?

God: He doesn’t save all people.

Beauty: But your holiness, you said he is the saviour of all the people on earth.

God: Yes, my child. My son is the saviour of all people; it’s just that he doesn’t actually save all people.

Beauty: I don’t understand "he is, but he isn’t." If I would have ever said something as confusing as that to my Momma, she would have hit me with a stick.

God: Let me explain: My son died such a bad death to pay for all the bad things that bad people do. Now anyone who believes my son did a good thing for them will not be hurt for the bad things they did, but will live for ever. I have written all these rules in a book called the bible. It says in the bible that what you get for doing bad is death. But if any one likes my son’s sacrifice for their bad life, I will give them a free gift of everlasting life.

Beauty: Oh god! I hardly know what to say. You mean if I believe in your son who did a good thing for me, even though I have often been bad, that you will give me a life that never ends?

God: No child. Not you. You don’t understand the higher scholarship of
Christian theology. You see, you don’t qualify to be saved.

Beauty: What is "c h r i s t i a n t h e o l o g y?"

God: It’s too confusing, Child, not even theologians know what it is.

Beauty: Why don’t I "qualify?" What must I do to "qualify?"

God: You don’t have to do anything to qualify. Salvation is by grace. That means it’s a free gift.

Beauty: Then why don’t I qualify, your holiness?

God: Well, what I mean is you can’t qualify for salvation, but you can be disqualified by not qualifying for the qualification that is not required, seeing salvation is free by grace. Or, ah, something like that.

Beauty: Do you reckon, your holiness, one of those theologians might be able to explain that a litter better for me?

God: No, my child, besides, it is too late for you to be saved.

Beauty: But, your holiness, why is it too late?

God: Because you didn’t accept my son and his sacrifice before you died giving birth.

Beauty: But, your holiness, I didn’t know of your son and his sacrifice before I died.

God: Tough child. I can’t be bothered with all the complicated details
of trying to get everybody saved. Besides, most of the highest educated theologians in the world clearly teach that if one dies not knowing of my son’s sacrifice for them, it is too late to ever be saved.

Beauty: You mean my punishment for being bad will not be taken away by your son and I will be given death for ever?

God: Not exactly, child. I know my bible says death, but my theologians thought that death was too good for bad people, so they changed it to a never-ending life of torture in fire. And it will hurt hundreds and hundreds and countless billions of times more than when you died giving birth. I will never stop burning your flesh, Beauty, not even for a second, and, of course, your baby daughter will be burning right by your side. Actually most of Africa will be burning with you. Billions and billions. Just burning and burning. Billions and bill ... Excuse me, Beauty, go ahead.

Beauty: But God, your holiness, why? Why?

God: Look child, as one of my leading theologians recently suggested, it is not incumbent upon me to save everyone. Indeed it is not incumbent upon me to save anyone. Besides you are my enemy and I hate you. I know it doesn’t sound fair child, but you have to understand, these great theologians of the world have made these rules, and so my hands are tied.

Beauty: But God, I don’t hate you.

God: Now don’t try to lay a guilt trip on me child, I said I hate you, you're my enemy, and that’s final.

Beauty: But your holiness, you said your son taught everyone to love their enemies?

“”GOD: angels of the guard, “this girl is getting on my nerves”. “Throw her into the fires of hell to burn scream in horror, desolation, and loneliness for ever. and ever and ever, with no end to her infinite torment””

God: Next who are we now going to confine to everlasting torment?


Regards

Alan

Along with being a troll, and wanting to have his posts read as a indication of his importance somehow, Alan tends to post things and not make it clear that he didn't write them (I have shown this in the past).  I know he didn't specifically claim he wrote this, however he did change the name of the girl and conveniently not mention that he is not the author.

Alan next time please start a new thread and be clear about who the author of your post is.  Or you can keep doing this and I can keep pointing it out.  Actually your stuff I avoid; the only reason I lurk occasionally on this site is to read what Don and his serious debaters have to say.

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1047701

Hello, 

You all who continue to be doubt these ‘afterlife experiences' need to be abit more critical of your doubts. Try being even partially as critical as you are of others’ beliefs. 

Harvey, regarding your post --
the first part just describes some of the nitty-gritty of how to get published.  How would you expect such a title to get published?  It’s interesting to know but it doesn’t prove anything.

The second part, the NYT article, is filled with ‘could’s and with the need for validations, so it represents its writer’s frame of mind, not facts either --

Think of what you ‘could' have done compared with what you did. "I could have ....” What? Become a better person? But I didn’t. Become a great artist?  But I didn’t. Coulds don’t happen. Could’s invalidate (just like woulds and shoulds.) They aren’t worth your time, Harvey.  Be suspicious of them!

That writer’s need for validation is sad. He’s looking for   truth in the wrong way by asking that a four-year olds story be set up like legal testimony in a trial. Who raises four year olds that way?  That family didn’t know when the boy started his memories of his NDE that he would have so many facets of experience, so how could they be prepared for what he would continue to reveal?

Please make sure that your critiques can hold up under scrutiny.

Betson

betson wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 4:02pm:

Hello,  You all who continue to be doubt these ‘afterlife experiences' need to be abit more critical of your doubts. Try being even partially as critical as you are of others’ beliefs.  Harvey, regarding your post -- the first part just describes some of the nitty-gritty of how to get published.  How would you expect such a title to get published?  It’s interesting to know but it doesn’t prove anything. The second part, the NYT article, is filled with ‘could’s and with the need for validations, so it represents its writer’s frame of mind, not facts either -- Think of what you ‘could' have done compared with what you did. "I could have ....” What? Become a better person? But I didn’t. Become a great artist?  But I didn’t. Coulds don’t happen. Could’s invalidate (just like woulds and shoulds.) They aren’t worth your time, Harvey.  Be suspicious of them! That writer’s need for validation is sad. He’s looking for   truth in the wrong way by asking that a four-year olds story be set up like legal testimony in a trial. Who raises four year olds that way?  That family didn’t know when the boy started his memories of his NDE that he would have so many facets of experience, so how could they be prepared for what he would continue to reveal? Please make sure that your critiques can hold up under scrutiny. Betson

Hey Bet'sy and the rest of you guys. Remember the Warsaw ghetto uprising in WW2! Well, you better get those sandbags filled, and Lock and Load! Lynn Vincent and the rest of her conservative fundy Christians are planning an assault on your 'New Age Ghetto'! Actual pic of her below.  ;D

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7397/lynnvincenttrapshooter.jpg

Harvey, have you ever heard of the word "Love"?
Are you familiar with the concept of Karma?

Mogenblue wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 12:04am:

Harvey, have you ever heard of the word "Love"? Are you familiar with the concept of Karma?

No! I don't know the word 'love' or the concept 'Karma'!

Are you friggin' serious??? I was in Amsterdam in 1978 as a young man. I saw and experienced(being in these places) all the legal cafe's that sold hash and grass! Plus vegetarian food. I did not partake in any of it(drugs), but I drank huge amounts of Amstel beer!...Today, Hash and grass is still legal in Amsterdam, up to one once, 29 grams, in personal possession...I know you are a vegetarian, but do you smoke hash or grass now? Be honest.   

Harvey, you are completely off topic.

harvey wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 12:45am:

I was in Amsterdam in 1978 as a young man. I saw and experienced(being in these places) all the legal cafe's that sold hash and grass! Plus vegetarian food. I did not partake in any of it(drugs),

Can you proof that? It is a criminal offense in the US.

Harvey shouldn't you inform Homeland Security that a citizan of Amsterdam is infiltrating this US based forum?
You must fullfill your duties. You have to.

Mogenblue wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 1:55am:

harvey wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 12:45am: I was in Amsterdam in 1978 as a young man. I saw and experienced(being in these places) all the legal cafe's that sold hash and grass! Plus vegetarian food. I did not partake in any of it(drugs), Can you proof that? It is a criminal offense in the US. Harvey shouldn't you inform Homeland Security that a citizan of Amsterdam is infiltrating this US based forum? You must fullfill your duties. You have to.

Use spell check, English version, and clean out your bong before you rely again!

harvey wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 2:16am:

Use spell check, English version, and clean out your bong before you rely again!

What do you mean with "rely"?
Are you stoned again?

Mogenblue wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 3:05am:

harvey wrote on Jun 28th, 2012 at 2:16am: Use spell check, English version, and clean out your bong before you rely again! What do you mean with "rely"? Are you stoned again?

It looks like we have a real-sweetheart dutch clown here...I have never used illegal drugs in my present physical life....It seems you are avoiding my past inquiry...Do you smoke hashish and grass now, which is freely available in Amsterdam and legal?

harvey wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 12:45am:

I was in Amsterdam in 1978 as a young man. I saw and experienced(being in these places) all the legal cafe's that sold hash and grass! Plus vegetarian food. I did not partake in any of it(drugs), but I drank huge amounts of Amstel beer

Everybody knows that if you pass a coffeeshop overhere the stench will slam into your face if they keep the door open. That is because they vaporize it into the air.
So if you say you were only drinking beer in "those" places you still must have been stoned like a duck because you have been inhaling the air. Hence my question: are you stoned again?

The fact that Todd's father is a minister says it all. He was the one who is the one who wrote the book (he told his kid what to say most likely).

I don't discount the possibility of there being an afterlife I just discount books peddled by Christian fundamentalists.

http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/product-reviews/0849946158/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

some very good reviews:

e.g. "I read this book truly hoping to find an account of life after death that I could believe in. Unfortunately the story has several factual errors which cast serious doubts about the legitimacy of the story. Add that to the increasingly fantastic imagery that emerges as the boy grows older and is exposed to more Christian "schooling" and Hollywood media and the whole story loses credibility."

I believe it is important to point out that Otawa provided a link for the one star reviews, so the example reviews provided don't tell the entire story of what people think of the book.



ottawa1 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/product-reviews/0849946158/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0 some very good reviews: e.g. "I read this book truly hoping to find an account of life after death that I could believe in. Unfortunately the story has several factual errors which cast serious doubts about the legitimacy of the story. Add that to the increasingly fantastic imagery that emerges as the boy grows older and is exposed to more Christian "schooling" and Hollywood media and the whole story loses credibility."

This is true recoverer, but those reviews do sum up the problems nicely.

harvey wrote on Jun 27^th, 2012 at 6:10pm:

betson wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 4:02pm: Hello,  You all who continue to be doubt these ‘afterlife experiences' need to be abit more critical of your doubts. Try being even partially as critical as you are of others’ beliefs.  Harvey, regarding your post -- the first part just describes some of the nitty-gritty of how to get published.  How would you expect such a title to get published?  It’s interesting to know but it doesn’t prove anything. The second part, the NYT article, is filled with ‘could’s and with the need for validations, so it represents its writer’s frame of mind, not facts either -- Think of what you ‘could' have done compared with what you did. "I could have ....” What? Become a better person? But I didn’t. Become a great artist?  But I didn’t. Coulds don’t happen. Could’s invalidate (just like woulds and shoulds.) They aren’t worth your time, Harvey.  Be suspicious of them! That writer’s need for validation is sad. He’s looking for   truth in the wrong way by asking that a four-year olds story be set up like legal testimony in a trial. Who raises four year olds that way?  That family didn’t know when the boy started his memories of his NDE that he would have so many facets of experience, so how could they be prepared for what he would continue to reveal? Please make sure that your critiques can hold up under scrutiny. Betson Hey Bet'sy and the rest of you guys. Remember the Warsaw ghetto uprising in WW2! Well, you better get those sandbags filled, and Lock and Load! Lynn Vincent and the rest of her conservative fundy Christians are planning an assault on your 'New Age Ghetto'! Actual pic of her below.  ;D http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7397/lynnvincenttrapshooter.jpg

As I recall, things ended really badly for the people involved on the Polish side of the Warsaw uprising.

ottawa1 wrote on Jun 28^th, 2012 at 1:06pm:

harvey wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 6:10pm: betson wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 4:02pm: Hello,  You all who continue to be doubt these ‘afterlife experiences' need to be abit more critical of your doubts. Try being even partially as critical as you are of others’ beliefs.  Harvey, regarding your post -- the first part just describes some of the nitty-gritty of how to get published.  How would you expect such a title to get published?  It’s interesting to know but it doesn’t prove anything. The second part, the NYT article, is filled with ‘could’s and with the need for validations, so it represents its writer’s frame of mind, not facts either -- Think of what you ‘could' have done compared with what you did. "I could have ....” What? Become a better person? But I didn’t. Become a great artist?  But I didn’t. Coulds don’t happen. Could’s invalidate (just like woulds and shoulds.) They aren’t worth your time, Harvey.  Be suspicious of them! That writer’s need for validation is sad. He’s looking for   truth in the wrong way by asking that a four-year olds story be set up like legal testimony in a trial. Who raises four year olds that way?  That family didn’t know when the boy started his memories of his NDE that he would have so many facets of experience, so how could they be prepared for what he would continue to reveal? Please make sure that your critiques can hold up under scrutiny. Betson Hey Bet'sy and the rest of you guys. Remember the Warsaw ghetto uprising in WW2! Well, you better get those sandbags filled, and Lock and Load! Lynn Vincent and the rest of her conservative fundy Christians are planning an assault on your 'New Age Ghetto'! Actual pic of her below.  ;D http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7397/lynnvincenttrapshooter.jpg As I recall, things ended really badly for the people involved on the Polish side of the Warsaw uprising.

Hey Ottawa..I'm going to consolidate my neutral forces with yours...But I really think we are going to be totally screwed here! After all, the military might of the conservative Christians always wins! As a major, sometimes tattooed, saying of the US Marines, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!" ...   

Ottawa must be so happy to hear that from a mayor. I would. That's for sure.

I read some more of “Heaven is for real.” To be honest, I feel as if I would have to shrink down my intelligence in order to take it completely seriously.  If Colton did in fact have the experience described (there are lots of hoaxers out there from the people behind Amityville horror to Carlos Castaneda) , it seems as if he was provided with information that is either intended for people who just won’t question anything the Bible has to say, his father, or both.

From page 57:

“Well, 0 buddy, a funeral happens when someone dies. A man here in town died, and his family is coming to the church to say good-bye to him.”

Instantly, Colton’s demeanor changed. His face fell into serious lines, and he stared fiercely into my eyes. “Did that man have Jesus in his heart?”

My son was asking me whether the man who had died was a Christian who had accepted Christ as his Savior. But his intensity caught me off guard. “I’m not sure, Colton,” I said. “I didn’t know him very well.”

Colton’s face bunched up in a terrible twist of worry. “He had to have Jesus in his heart! He had to know Jesus or he can’t get into heaven!”

From pages 58-59, after looking into the deceased man’s casket:

Suddenly Colton’s face gathered into that same knot of intense concern. He slammed his fists on his thighs, then pointed one finger at that casket and said in a near shout, “Did that man have Jesus?!”
….
“He had to! He had to!” Colton went on. “He can’t get into heaven if he didn’t have Jesus in his heart!”

Going by the above, it seems to me that Colton did express the “You better accept Jesus or else” viewpoint.  For the reasons I stated earlier on this thread, I don’t believe this is the best way to represent Jesus. Perhaps there are people who see things in black and white terms that benefit from such speak, but I believe that eventually such a viewpoint needs to be transcended.  Such a viewpoint tends to connect Jesus with fear, and a lot of well meaning  and very sensible people find this repelling.

Colton said that Jesus has markers (crucifixion marks), all people in heaven have wings, God sat at a throne, Jesus sat on God’s right and Gabriel on God’s left.  I find it hard to believe that such things should be considered literally.  Certainly such beings have a nature that is far beyond something akin to a physical body. If Colton did in fact experience things in such a way, as I stated on earlier posts, perhaps he was provided with such viewpoints because the beings who met with him understood that his pastor father wouldn’t be open to hearing about experiences that were non-Biblical in nature.

When it comes to Colton’s father believing in such a way, when Colton spoke of seeing rainbow colors, his father related this to the book of Revelations (page 66). It seems to me that he might’ve gone a bit too far when he tried to connect the dots in such a way.

recoverer,

Just returned from performing a wedding for a young man who was just a boy when I lived in Buffalo, NY.  I flew there from eastern Washington.  I returned home to learn of a death and a catastrophic tragedy that I must deal with as a pastor.   So I must delay my response.

By the way,the family I visited had just learned of an amazing answer to prayer.  Their friend had an inoperable tumor in the center of his brain.  After prayer, the tumor had vanished according to the next series of tests taken shortly therafter.       

Todd Burpo spoke publicly about Colton's NDE in Mountainview Wesleyan Church in Colorado Springs.  His host e-mailed Todd about a CNN interview of Akiane Kramarik (Age 12), a Lithuanian-American girl living in Idaho, about her visions of heaven which began at age 4, visions that inspired her to paint what she saw at age 6.  Akiane is a child prodigy, whose paintings are good enough to be hung in art galleries.  Her mother was an atheist; so God was never discussed in the home.  The family never watched TV and Akiane never attended preschool.  So her Mom was gradually convinced that Akiane's visions were real and that God was real.  Akiane is now both a self-taught painter and a self-taught piano composer.

1. Akiane: “There are hundreds of millions of colors we don't know yet.”  This parallels Colton's obsession with rainbows inspired by his experience of diverse colors in this pattern in heaven. 

2. Akiane's portrait of Jesus at age 8 can be seen on her website: "Striking greenish-blue eyes under thick, dark brows with half the face in shadow, his hair shorter than most artists paint it.”  Check the top picture in "Gallery" and enlarge twice.

www.akiane.com/home

3. Colton had said: “And His eyes, O Dad, His eyes are so pretty.”  Over several months, Todd had shown Colton dozens of pictures of Jesus and asked the same question.  Colton had always rejected these portraits.
To Colton (now 7): “Take a look at this (Akiane's).  What's wrong with  this one?”  “Nothing.”  Todd repeats the question.  “Dad, that one's right.”

Don

Don,

That painting of Jesus is incredibly beautiful.  It also reminds me of a dream my mother had when she described the appearance of Jesus in her dream.  She said his eyes were brilliant colors of blue and emerald green.  She also started to paint the Jesus of her dream and the eyes as I recall were very similar.  I don't believe she ever finished the painting.  I'll have to ask my sister if she knows what ever happened to it.  If I find it, I'll post a picture of it.

Kathy

   I read that entire book.  My sense is that Colton did have some nonphysical oriented experiences and communicated with Jesus, but that he has been definitely influenced by his father, or rather the book is definitely influenced by the father.  To what extent, i don't know. 

   Re: Akiane's portrait of Jesus and Colton's support of her painting, i can't say that i agree fully.  I've seen Yeshua somewhat clearly a couple of times.  Once in a dream, once in meditation.

  I also find it interesting that 4 very different and unrelated sources all agree about an aspect of his looks.  I once read an NDE from a Jewish woman with no prior interest in or liking of "Jesus" who met Yeshua and perceived him and his physical looks in a very vivid way.  She said that he had reddish tinted or colored hair. 

  In two readings by Edgar Cayce, it was mentioned that Yeshua had noticeably reddish colored hair.  In one specifically, it said that his hair was much like King Davids had been, a mix of light brown, red and golden.  Since he lived in an intensely sunny climate, somewhat near the equator, the Sun would have brought out the red and golden highlights.

   In one reading, it mentioned he had heavy, piercing blue or steel gray colored eyes. 

   For some years, until a mysterious break no one seems to know much about, Bob Monroe and Joe McMoneagle the former gov. remote viewer were friends.  Bob had an envelope with a target inside.  He asked Joe to remote view the target, which unbeknownst to Joe until partway in the session was Jesus (he pretty quickly picked up it was Jesus and at the end of the session Bob handed him the envelope which said Jesus and early Christianity i believe). He also noted reddish colored hair in relation to Jesus. 

   In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in one of the prophecies of the coming Messiah that is not contained within traditional texts, it was mentioned that he would have reddish hair.  Cayce gave his readings well before these were even discovered. 

   My dream and the meditation confirmed that his hair is noticeably reddish and his eyes are a very intense and beautiful lightish gray blue green, with more emphasis on gray and blue on average (some eyes, especially light eyes like mine, can subtly change hues depending on light, what colors they are wearing, etc).

   I had another dream which seemed to confirm this indirectly also.  In the dream, i was teaching a class (i'm not a teacher inphysical, but i have worked with students). A young woman, raised her hand and said, "Mr. (my last name), you're like Christ."  In the dream, i first felt uncomfortable with that comparison, and i said the students name and said something like, "thank you, i know you mean well, but i dont' think i should be compared to him" and i was being sincere when i said that.

  After i said that, silence for a bit, and then she raised her hand again, and then immediately said, "but your eyes are even like his."  I thought about it for a moment, and i realized she spoke the truth and so didn't correct her this time. 

  At the end of the class, a student whom i had worked with inphysical and with whom i had a really good rapport and good influence on (he had some anger issues, having a disability, being black and having grown up in a poor and rough area but was otherwise a mature and helpful type overall) came up to me with a big grin on his face and high fived me.  The feeling was very positive.  End of dream. 

  Re: my eyes, i have somewhat unusual colored eyes (also quite light gray blue, with a hint of green) and intensity.  A number of people have commented on their beauty and/or intensity/piercing quality.  Even at least one straight guy that i remember.   

  I don't know if the dream was referring more to the actual color, or more to the "vibe", or both in the comparison to Yeshua. 


  So, yes, based on a combination of a different outer sources agreeing, and some internal guidance, i don't think Akiane's painting is very accurate.  Somewhat, but not very.  Course, most people think that Jesus looked like a typical Palestinian or Hebrew type, short, dark, etc.  I use to think that myself, but he had unusual beginnings and there are even today light colored eyed and skin'd Middle Easterners, and may have been more then from the Celtic mixing that was probably more prevalent during those times.  (quite the adventurous explorers and wanderers were the Celts, heck red and golden haired mummies have been found deep in China).

  Re: Colton's account, i did find it interesting that Colton says that Jesus told him about a war that is coming wherein Jesus, the Angels, and the good people would have to fight the bad people, the monsters, and Satan.  When Todd asks him about the "monsters", i think he replied something like, *you know, dragons". 

    I have wondered if that is referring to something i use to be quite skeptical of, but am now very open minded because of some internal guidance and synchronicity, the negative E.T.'s that are Reptilian in appearance.  Dragons is a great metaphor or symbol for them.  Evil Reptilian looking E.T.'s that fly around in ships that can shoot destructive fires.

  But then again, Dragons is a somewhat commonly mentioned Biblical symbol too, so maybe Colton was just being influenced by that?

   

I figure Jesus projects an image people will recognize according to what they figure he looks like.

Justin, the Dead Sea scrolls never say Jesus or the Messiah had red hair.  Do you have a source?

www.akiane.com/home

I actually bought her book recently, maybe a year or two ago. She's obviously a special person with a beautiful heart.

There is something about that particular portrait which is a little disturbing. If you cover it up on the left side and only look at the shadowy side on the right, it's really not a pleasant experience.

But, she's an interesting person, for sure.

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:47pm:

Justin, the Dead Sea scrolls never say Jesus or the Messiah had red hair.  Do you have a source?

   Hi Don,

   Here is a link to google books to a book on the Dead Sea Scrolls:
http://books.google.com/books?id=218JbeU2POgC&pg=PA539&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

  Look at section 133, "The Birth of the Chosen One".  The authors of the book write, "The 'Chosen one' can be recognized by certain telltale physical traits." 

In the actual script itself, "...Red will be [his] hair..." 

  I guess there is some debate on whether or not this coming chosen one is also "the Messiah", but it certainly sounds like it to me, and again matches with those 3 other unrelated psychically derived sources.  Red hair IS distinctive because it's genetically the rarest hair color.

  As should be apparent, it's a prophecy and not inphysical observation of Yeshua. 

recoverer wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 7:44pm:

I figure Jesus projects an image people will recognize according to what they figure he looks like.

  I think that depends, and is certainly possible, especially if someone has a emotional need to see him in a certain way.  But, if someone doesn't have that need, why wouldn't they see him as he physically looks like if they are perceiving physical type looks to begin with? 

    Here's my reasoning for that.  The New Testament and the Cayce readings say that after Jesus was crucified and died, 3 days later, he re-entered the body he had left, and re-animated it.  However, this "body" now wasn't limited physically at all.  Basically it was Spirit that could directly interact with the physical in a physical like way, but not bound by same like most of us are. 

    Monroe's account of He/She may indirectly support the NT and Cayce versions of that account.  The 1800 years that Monroe blurted out in surprise regarding "He/She's" age doesn't completely jibe with Jesus's time frame, but i think Monroe was also blown away by the whole encounter, was perceiving in a more "right brain" kind of way to begin with, etc. so maybe it was just the first figure that popped into his mind.

   In any case, there is the very powerful commonality between the NT and Cayce's info with that of Monroe's He/She, a seeming human being who stays in physical but is not subject to it's laws or tendencies (aging, getting sick, needing food, etc).   

  In any case, the point is, Yeshua may still be in seeming physical form, and the same form he grew up with as a child.  Hence, he's still very directly connected to the physical--this means that people can perceive him physically and nonphysically.  So why wouldn't people tend to perceive him "as is" like that Jewish woman, unless they had very strong preconceptions or need to see him otherwise?  Nonphysically he would most likely be perceived as an incredibly White and intensely bright Light and indeed, a number of NDE accounts with him correspond to that.

   Plus, bodies are not fully understood from a metaphysical perspective.  A physical body can represent information about character, the spiritual, emotional, and mental tendencies of a person.   It's like encoded symbolic information.  This is why the Essenes for example were fairly obsessed with studies like phrenology and astrology because they knew the body could mirror the "Soul" in important ways.  They could tell if a person would have more spiritual and positive tendencies by certain "signs" in the body. 

There is a bit of that also in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but it's something i figured out from my studies into astrology many years before i read any of that. 

   Since Jesus was born in a very unusual way, direct Spirit to physical conception, he in particular represents a very clear and pure mirroring from the Soul or Consciousness to physical.  Or, in other words, his body perfectly reflects who and what he is in symbolic information.  If Jesus for whatever reason decided to be born again of a woman, and did it the same way he did before, he would most likely look the same. 

     I'm not saying the body always exactly mirrors the Soul or Consciousness.  Physical environmental pressures and influences can certainly alter the body patterns so that it doesn't reflect the Consciousness as well, but again Jesus's case was a bit unique because it was a more direct dowloading of his unique information in this dimension (represented outwardly by a "body").   

   Souls are all unique and individual.  That uniqueness and individuality IS a "Body" in the broadest sense, it's what distinguishes one unit of Consciousness from another.  Any Soul/Consciousness is going to have "identifying" features.  If perceived more nonphysically it might relate to colors, shades, brightness level, feeling traits, etc. 

  If translated into physicality, it might be certain shape of the head, features of the eyes, natural musculature, etc, etc. 

  Anyways, this is not a subject well known about by too many people, and it's probably not best gone into depth because people can easily misconstrue it without a full holistic understanding of how consciousness relates to physicality and vice versa, but also realizing that the "nonphysical" while not separate, is different from the "physical" and that they have their own tendencies, rules, etc. 

If a person is receiving energy from a purely loving source, the physical appearance of the source is so unimportant.  I recall having an experience long ago which I interpreted as one with whom we call Jesus, in a meditation. What I experienced was sooooooo completely unrelated to his appearance physically. If someone wants to connect with such a spirit, that spirit will assume the shape which meets the person's need. That's it.

Additionally, I received healing from someone a few years back, maybe 5 years ago. A friend insisted on taking me to this man, and I knew nothing about what he practiced. It was a little weird. But, I have to say, it was real, it took me into a completely other realm -- a high state of meditation. Although I was quite personally disturbed that day by my own issues before having my own private time with the healer, his healing was incredible. It reminded me of what matters most, and I was truly transported. Not that he could "save" me, or anything like that. But sometimes it helps to be reminded of what is possible. That, in itself, is a kind of miracle.

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

If a person is receiving energy from a purely loving source, the physical appearance of the source is so unimportant.

  I completely agree with you.  Though if someone is using the physical looks of a person to verify psychically received information from two different sources, then it can be an issue worth looking at.  Don seems to consider that because Colton supposedly said that Akiane's painting matched with his perception of what Yeshua looked like, that it was a verification or confirmation of some kind of Colton's information. 

   I don't necessarily disagree with that, it's just that i know on different levels and various ways that Akiane's portrait is not very accurate.  Bruce's psychic friend, Caroline confirmed for me that i had a lifetime associated with Yeshua in Palestine.  After that, and when i told her that i thought my name had been Lucius in that life, and that i was of Greek, Roman and Hebrew descent, she said that it felt true. 

   Someone who is fairly intuitive in this life, who probably had a life somewhat closely associated with that person, who also have found various different psychic sources that agree with each other and their own internal guidance, might probably have a good idea of what Yeshua looked and looks like.  Like i said, he's still very much involved with the physical in a human looking form.  And he will be making public appearances again in that same form.  It's of possible benefit that people know what he really looks like because if they can't sense psychically well, the looks can help as a clue.  (though i suspect by that point, the people around will be more consciously and accurately intuitive as a general trend). 

  One would think that a Jewish woman, with no prior interest or liking of Yeshua, if she did meet him as she describes in her NDE, might perceive this Jewish born man to be classically "Hebrew" looking, dark hair, eyes, skin, etc. 

  Yet, that was not the case, she saw him with reddish hair.  Rare in general, but especially among Middle Eastern peoples. and just so happens to correspond with those other sources.  :o 8-)

[Justin:]  In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in one of the prophecies of the coming Messiah that is not contained within traditional texts, it was mentioned that he would have reddish hair.

(1) The Dead Sea Scrolls don't mention Jesus.  nor does the text you cite explcitly refer to the Messiah.  Old Testament heroes are routinely portrayed as "chosen" for their missions.
(2) Jesus understands Himself as "the coming Messiah" (singular), but the Dead Sea Community has no such expectation.  Rather, they expect an anointed eschatological Priest and King (2 figures).  So the red-headed man does not apply to Jesus.
(3) Joseph Fitzmyer reflects the scholarly consensus when he identifies Noah as the "the chosen one" in the text you cite.  The text is in any case fragmentary and at best ambiguous and thus cannot confidently b be cited as messianic. 

Colton's identification of Akiane's portrait as the Jesus he saw in heaven has as a control dozens of portraits of Jesus that he rejects as the Jesus he saw.  Colton did not know who Akiane is or that she painted Jesus on the basis of heavenly visions.  The genius of the 8-year-old's painting allowed it sell for $40,000--a telltale sign that something paranormal is involved in this synchronicity.  All this proves nothing, but it strikes me as a lot more credible than the subjective impressions you cite.

Don  

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 3:13pm:

[Jason:]  In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in one of the prophecies of the coming Messiah that is not contained within traditional texts, it was mentioned that he would have reddish hair. (1) The Dead Sea Scrolls don't mention Jesus.  nor does the text you cite explcitly refer to the Messiah.  Old Testament heroes are routinely portrayed as "chosen" for their missions. (2) Jesus understands Himself as "the coming Messiah" (singular), but the Dead Sea Community has no such expectation.  Rather, they expect an anointed eschatological Priest and King (2 figures).  So the red-headed man does not apply to Jesus. (3) Joseph Fitzmyer reflects the scholarly consensus when he identifies Noah as the "the chosen one" in the text you cite.  The text is in any case fragmentary and at best ambiguous and thus cannot confidently b be cited as messianic.  Colton's identification of Akiane's portrait as the Jesus he saw in heaven has as a control dozens of portraits of Jesus that he rejects as the Jesus he saw.  Colton did not know who Akiane is or that she painted Jesus on the basis of heavenly visions.  The genius of the 8-year-old's painting allowed it sell for $40,000--a telltale sign that something paranormal is involved in this synchronicity.  All this proves nothing, but it strikes me as a lot more credible than the subjective impressions you cite. Don

   Don, if you read the entire part of "The Birth of the Chosen One", it's extremely Messianic in scope and tone.  If I could copy and past from Google books, i would, but i can't.  The authors of that book however talk about how some researchers/scholars do believe it refers to a prophecy of the coming Messiah (aka Yeshua for Christians), or at least to a Messiah if not "The" Messiah.  Some have thought it might pertain to Noah.  However, what's obvious to me is that Noah was around a very long time ago, and i doubt there would be any surviving prophecies re: Noah's coming.  This text is written in a very prophetic manner, talking about someone who is yet to come.

Some of the specific passages mentioned in that section like, "He will reveal secrets from the Most High"  and whose "Wisdom shall come to all peoples" , or "he will know the secrets of men", or "he will know the secrets of living things" or "All of their designs against him shall fail, and the array (?) of all living things will be great...  his purposes because he is the chosen one of God... His birth and the spirit of his breath [...] his purpose will last forever [...] 

  Oh, there is more than mirrors and dovetails quite nice with Yeshua--his life, purpose, abilities..  Well, if it walks and quacks like Yeshua, it probably is.  ;)   But, i suppose you already formed a belief about Colton and Akiane and aren't particularly open minded to other interpretations. 

Regarding the Essenes, i think like any group, there was different perceptions and beliefs among different members and sub groups to some extent. The historical sources about the Essenes at times contradict each other regarding some of their beliefs and practices.  It's also possible that some of the Essene peoples' expectation of a coming Priest and King, was more or less correct because John the Baptist was an instrumental part of Yeshua life and service.  It's like John paved, or prepared the way for Yeshua.  John came from the line of the Priesthood, and his father Zachariah was one of the Priests in the Temple.  Hence John may have been coming Priest figure, and Yeshua the "King".  Perhaps they just placed more emphasis on the Elijah like, prophetic figure who was to pave the way for "The" Messiah than do most modern Christian thinkers?  John doesn't seem to get much focus in todays time. 

    Re: Akiane and Colton and your statement about my subjective statements re: Yeshua's looks.  Yes, my personal experiences and perceptions are subjective, but i added these as an add on.  I mentioned 4 outer, psychically derived sources not directly connected to me or each other.  An NDE from a Jewish woman with no previous belief, interest in, or liking of Yeshua, Joe McMoneagle, a well known former U.S. gov. remote viewer with some definite and verified skills (though i think his future stuff is way, way off often), Edgar Cayce--perhaps one of the most verified, vast, and broad psychic works in the world, and the "Birth of the Chosen One" passage in the Dead Sea Scrolls. 

  Personally, i will take those 4 outer, other sources WITH my own experiences as a combination, over just Colton's and Akiane's perceptions, any day. 5 to 2, the odds are better. 

  Lastly, my name is not "Jason", it's Justin. Geesh, we both have been part of this site for many, many years and you still don't know my name?  I'm wounded Don, truly wounded.   :D 

[Justin, sorry, the name mistake iand is corrected in my post].

You apparently don't understand how apocalyptic works.  Enoch precedes Noah, and yet, is a source of major future speculation.  Jewish apocalyptic arises as an antidote to the prevailing belief that prophetic inspiratoin has been silenced.  So to present new prohpetic revelations, one needs the fiction of ancient Old Testament voices coming alive (e. g. Enoch, Ezea, Baruch, and yes, Noah, etc.).

Secondly, you miss the point that neither the Essenes nor Jesus and His followers have the same messianic model in mind.  So the application of the "red-hair" text to Jesus is bogus.  Thirdly, your dogma may make you reluctant to accept the scholarly consensus that Noah, not a messianic figure is the subject of the red hair.  But this consensus establishes your contention as no more than a wild guess.  The text is clearly rather ambiguous. 

Don

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Secondly, you miss the point that neither the Essenes nor Jesus and His followers have the same messianic model in mind.  So the application of the "red-hair" text to Jesus is bogus.

The Dead Sea scrolls are right.

Jesus was red haired because he was Scottish. He was a short Scottish guy with red hair.
According to Wikipedia, the red hair color of Jesus gave rise to the name of the Red Sea.

Jesus - red haired.

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

[Justin, sorry, the name mistake iand is corrected in my post]. You apparently don't understand how apocalyptic works.  Enoch precedes Noah, and yet, is a source of major future speculation.  Jewish apocalyptic arises as an antidote to the prevailing belief that prophetic inspiratoin has been silenced.  So to present new prohpetic revelations, one needs the fiction of ancient Old Testament voices coming alive (e. g. Enoch, Ezea, Baruch, and yes, Noah, etc.). Secondly, you miss the point that neither the Essenes nor Jesus and His followers have the same messianic model in mind.  So the application of the "red-hair" text to Jesus is bogus.  Thirdly, your dogma may make you reluctant to accept the scholarly consensus that Noah, not a messianic figure is the subject of the red hair.  But this consensus establishes your contention as no more than a wild guess.  The text is clearly rather ambiguous.  Don

   No worries about the name thing, i was just joking around with you.  Thank you for the apology. 

  Yes, i DO understand the above method that the writers of the scripture used.  However, when they are speaking of or "on behalf of" some patriarch or prophet, they usually do so in the past or present tense... that was my point.  The segment of "The Birth of the Chosen One" is all in future tense of what WILL happen--it's a prophecy just like in Isaiah (or others) about the coming Messiah.

   Here's a little more directly from the book, the authors of the book write, "With the full release of all the unpublished scrolls, it seems possible that the initial impulse was correct: the "chosen one" is a messiah, if not the Messiah."   Perhaps you are more learned than the authors of the book, and therefore your conclusions are more accurate? 

    I am wondering though, if you have read the full text of that segment?  I've read the book from the library before.  So if this seer wasn't seeing the future life and ministry of Yeshua, then what unusual and exalted figure was he prophesying about?   Because clearly, if you read the full text the person he is describing, he is quite spiritually mighty, wise, Godly, psychically aware, and to be very influential and in a very far reaching way.

  Do you have any informed guesses of who it may actually be about?   Do you least allow for the possibility or probability that it could be about Yeshua?

  Because i would have to disagree, it doesn't seem that ambiguous to me.  Sure, it doesn't mention anything about riding a donkey, or the like, and is more general, broad info, but it does correlate quite well to Yeshua, his life, purpose, and influence.

Qumran [Essene] and aarly Christian eschatologies are contradictory in expection (one enemy-loving Messiah vs. a warlike llatter-day Priest and King).  The Essenes didn't recogize Jesus and vice versa. Jesus' self-understanding is rooted in Old Testament prophecy, not in contemporary sectarian prophecy.  So even if the red-haired chosen one is not Noah (and the consensus is that it is Noah), it is the prdoc ut of Essene fiction and is irrelevant to Jesus' appearance.  No respectable DSS or bibilcal scholar sees the 4Q text as relevant to Jesus' appearance!  My ex-professor (John Strugnell) was in on the discovery of the DSS and actually controlled their editing and translation decades.  So I know the scholarly research on this very well.

Don

    So now it's just "Essene fiction"?  Ah, i see, the Essenes didn't take their prophecies and spirituality too seriously did they LOL?  Seems to me that they were formed because some people were getting sick of the moral corruptness and materialism that was so prevalent in the more traditional and mainstream groups around them of the times. 

   So i guess the authors of that book aren't respectable biblical researchers, since they surmise that it's very possibly linked to Yeshua, or at least to "a" messiah?

    Hmm, the Essenes didn't recognize Jesus and vice versa... Jesus didn't seem to be too much a fan of dogmatic, secular thinking though he was in many ways a Jew and was very familiar with the O.T.   However, isn't it true that a number of scholars think it is highly probable that John the Baptist was strongly connected to the Essenes and vice versa? 

  If this is the case, then certainly Jesus did recognize the Essenes and vice versa, because again, John played an important role in preparing the way for Jesus's ministry.  True, it does not specifically state in the N.T. that John was part of the Essenes, but let's face it, there is gaping holes and even some contradictions in the N.T.  I mean, speak of a lack of info, where was Jesus and what was he doing between ages 13 to 29? 

  So, just because it doesn't specifically mention something, it doesn't mean that there isn't a connection. 

   

 

Justin: So now it's just "Essene fiction"?  Ah, i see, the Essenes didn't take their prophecies and spirituality too seriously did they LOL? 

You are confusing Essene prophecy with other genres. Essene prophecy was developed through their pesher interpretation of Old Testament prophecy.  The "red head" text is not am example of this.  You are not qualified to dispute the claim that this figure is Noah.  In Jewish testimentary literature including that of Qumran) fictional conversations, speeches, and predictions are put in the mouths of ancient Patriarchs.   This is one such example.  There is no evidence that Jesus took such texts seriously. 

[Justin:] So i guess the authors of that book aren't respectable biblical researchers, since they surmise that it's very possibly linked to Yeshua, or at least to "a" messiah?

[Justin:]  Isn't it true that a number of scholars think it is highly probable that John the Baptist was strongly connected to the Essenes and vice versa? 

Not "highly probable," just a genuine possibility.  John's teaching is as different as it is simiilar to Qumran's; and there are other hermit monks living solitary lives in the Transjordanian wilderness (e. .g Bannus, with whom Josephus studied).  Jesus and His followers only embraced the single Messiah concept rooted in OT prophecy.  The 2-figure Essene eschatology was totally different and featured intervention by the archangel Michael to help the Essenes crush the Roman oppressors (see the War Scroll)l  The Essenes don't recognize Jesus or vice versa.  Jesus advocates nonviolence and a kingdom not of this world.  But your most serious oversight is John the Baptist's later disilusionment with Jesus' unfolding nonviolent Messianic self-image. 

i[Jusitn:] Where was Jesus and what was he doing between ages 13 to 29? 

Living a very ordinary life in Nazareth as a carpenter.  When He launches His teaching and healing ministry, His home town and even His brothers are scandalized because they had no hint of such a display of power from his ordinary life as a carpenter.

By the way, Jesus was born in 7 BC and crucified in 30.  So He probably lived 36 or 37 years.  In 7 BC, when Jesus was 12, Jews in towns around Nazareth led by Judas the Galiliean launched a full-scale revolt against Rome.   Joseph is still alive in 7 BC, but there is no evidence that he was still alive after that.  I think Joseph was either killed or sold into slavery after the failed revolt.  See Josephus's description of what happened to those perceived as supporters of this rebellion. 

Don


   

 

harvey wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 6:08pm:

From the New York Times: "Heaven Is for Real” was published in late 2010, became a word-of-mouth best seller and has spent 59 (nonconsecutive) weeks as the No. 1 nonfiction paperback on The New York Times’s best-seller list. Recently the publisher, Thomas Nelson, spun off a children’s picture book, now also a best seller, with illustrations verified by Colton. And sometime in 2014, courtesy of DeVon Franklin, vice president of production at Columbia Pictures, who considers his faith “a professional asset,” a movie version should be released in theaters. " Wow! I'll bet the Burpo's are laughing all the way to the bank! Lynn Vincent, who co-authored the book with Todd Burpo. Quote: "Vincent, a U.S. Navy veteran, spent 11 years as an investigative reporter and feature writer for WORLD magazine, a conservative Christian newsweekly with a paid subscribership of more than 120,000. She has lectured on writing at the World Journalism Institute, and at The King's College in New York City. Vincent was hired by former Alaska governor and vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin to be the collaborator on Palin's memoir, Going Rogue. Upon release, the book immediately hit no. 1 on the New York Times bestseller list. Palin's memoir is one of only four political memoirs to sell more than 1 million copies, with current sales over 3 million." Wow! She must be one helluva writer/storyteller! The World Journalism Institute and the King's College. Quote: "The World Journalism Institute (WJI) was founded by Robert Case II in 1999. WJI is an independent journalism school whose mission is to recruit, equip, place and encourage journalists who are Christians in the mainstream newsrooms of America. In 1998, Marvin Olasky, Nick Eicher, and Robert Case II discussed the possibility of establishing an independent school of journalism with Joel Belz, publisher of World magazine. The institute is currently the largest independent school of journalism for Christian journalists in the U.S. and is headquartered in New York City on the campus of The King's College." Don't fundamentalist Christians also call themselves conservative Christians? Now from the other side. Quote: "It is rather a shame. Thanks to Heaven Is For Real, for the rest of Colton Burpo’s life people may well want to talk to him about something he barely remembers more than anything he achieves afterwards. What Colton Burpo didn’t already know about what was going on in the real world while he was unconscious, he could have guessed (for instance that his extremely religious parents were praying). If any of the real-world revelations still seem too unlikely, the father and author Todd Burpo admits a period at the beginning of the poor kid’s interrogation when Todd hadn’t thought not to ask leading questions. There’s no telling what he fed Colton. As for Colton’s descriptions of heaven, he could have picked up any amount of theological geography from his father before the event. Despite this, he recounted a great deal of detail which doesn’t match the Bible at all. Some believers have rejected the whole thing on this basis, but there are many others who simply ignore what Colton got “wrong” even as they proclaim what he got “right”. There’s a decent critique of the book and the kid’s story here, written by a Christian apologist academic of all people. He’s one of those for whom the “wrong” theology is a dealbreaker. So you see, even many of the faithful aren’t happy with Colton’s testimony." Here's the Christian apologist academic article. Quote: 'Heaven may be for real, but no matter how emotionally appealing you find it, the story in this book – isn’t. These days there are more than a few “near death experience” books making the rounds that were written by Christians. This one’s a little different in that the witness is a very young boy, Colton Burpo – which makes the emotional appeal all the harder to wipe out with rational analysis. However, like it or not, from an evidential perspective, the details in the book don’t add up to a reliable testimony. Not that there is much useful that could be used for that. Over 99 percent of the book is simply narrative, with nothing with which the spirits can be tested save a few details, which can be classified into two categories. The first category could be good proof for the veracity of Colton’s experiences, if they could surely be found to be valid – which they unfortunately cannot. The second category, however, absolutely proves Colton’s story to be merely a case of imagination – and we’ll get to that shortly. The first category has to do with events allegedly perceived by the subject NDE experiencer which occur during their indisposition – typically, things like allegedly seeing loved ones from some higher vantage point. I’m not out here to determine whether NDE experiences are real or not, but I will judge whether the evidence given shows that this one is, and the evidence in this first category, while seemingly impressive on the surface, doesn’t add up to enough significance to be determinative: xx-xxi, 61 – Colton claims he left his body and saw what turned out to be an accurate (but very vague) description of what his parents were doing at the time: His father praying in one room, and his mother on the phone and praying in another. 43 – Colton indicates knowledge that he had nearly died. 91 – Colton tells his father that Jesus had called him (Todd) to be a pastor when he was younger. 94-5 – Colton shows awareness of having had an unborn sister who had died while still enwombed. 122-3 Colton recognizes a photo of his deceased grandfather as a younger man, matching it to a man he reputedly met in heaven. Finally, here and there, there are examples given where Colton describes details in accord with some Biblical text (particularly Revelation). Todd Burpo assures us that he shared none of these details with Colton, but there is little done to validate this assurance. For the second example (43) he wonders if the medical staff of the hospital could have said something Colton overheard, but this is not investigated at all. For the rest, there is nothing to show that these details were not somehow gathered by some other means by Colton – whether from other relatives, members of Burpo’s church, or overheard conversations with other parties. That’s the first category. The second has fewer entries, but it far more damning for the authenticity of Colton’s experiences, especially as far as the Christian is concerned: How well do Colton’s experiences accord with external evidence not found in the Bible? It’s the sort of thing that could never occur to someone like Colton’s father Todd as a small town pastor whose theological education is quite limited (a BA in Theology), and so offers an ideal way to “test the spirits”. 100-1 – though rightly offering the Biblical detail that Jesus sat at God’s right hand, Colton offers the non-Biblical detail that Gabriel sits at God’s left. However, in reality, this would be a serious violation of the protocols of honor and hierarchy, and difficult to explain barring an overhaul of theology as we know it. Gabriel being seated at God’s left would amount to just about making him a co-ruler with God and His rough equal. If any ought be seated on God’s left, it is the Spirit. (Good thing Colton did not say it was Michael, or the JWs would have to rework their whole christology!) 133 – highly problematic for me as a preterist, Colton sees Satan running around free. 67 – However, the detail that ultimately invalidates Colton’s experiences irrevocably is that he describes seeing the wounds of Jesus’ crucifixion. Apart from questions of whether the wounds were indeed present after the Resurrection (the showing of the hands and feet is better related to the social concept of hands and feet as “zones of interaction” validating Jesus’ physical presence), Colton places then in Jesus’ palms and the middle of his feet – whereas genuine crucifixion victims had nails driven into their wrists and heel. Ironically, Todd Burpo does not believe his son ever saw a crucifix, and says, “We know where the nails were driven when Jesus was crucified” – but with this, he unwittingly shows that Colton’s vision of a wounded Jesus did come from some more modern image, because the fact is, he and Colton do NOT know where the nails went. 144 --Just as damning is the fact that Colton identified Jesus with a portrait done by Akiane Kramarik, who was also a very young child who claimed an NDE and a heavenly visit. While Todd Burpo sees in this an amazing validation, a look at Kramarik’s portrait shows it to be the white, Anglo-Saxon Jesus of modern, Western culture – a being that would have been recognized as a foreigner in first century Jewish Palestine. Sadly, there is more at stake here than a child’s winsome but wayward tale of heavenly experiences. There is not much theology in this book, but what little there is, is highly questionable (such as a poor theology of prayer s a gumball machine, 109). Far worse, however, is that this book will draw us much further into the trap that is emotional and experiential authentication and away from support for our loyalty (faith) in evidence. Having been a #1 New York Times bestseller, the success of this book is more a tragedy than something to be celebrated." Harvey

This is for you "Resurrection" Don.